Laguz Discussion

[Neofox]

Continued from here.

[kryptonite]

To help transfer the discussion more smoothly... >_>

Explain please, as their growths say otherwise.

With few exceptions, their growths besides HP and Luck are 45 or less... That's not good at all. >_>

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/tiara/fe10/char_growth.html

Some examples:

Code:

1 HP St Mg Sk Sp Lc Df Rs
2 Volug:
3 95 25 15 35 40 90 15 10
4 Mordecai:
5 90 35 10 25 15 80 45 15
6 Ulki:
7 65 25 30 25 40 35 30 25

Needless to say, after using them a bit any only gaining HP and Luc, I didn't really see a point in using them... >_> They'd have, like, 4 more stats in each area after getting them 15 levels...

They gain as much EXP as any 2nd tier unit I believe, and I'm pretty sure the whole point of how they work is that they're very powerful, but only under certain conditions.

It may because I'm on easy mode, but I can definitely say that's not true, unless you mean (lol) untransformed, when they're not killing anything but fed kills... >_> My level 20/20/1 Nolan gets more EXP than my Ranulf ever did transformed...

Wait, didn't you just say they gain EXP slowly? And what's the point in having them attack while human? Their stats aren't good enough to go on the offense while they are, and I can't even think of any reason why you'd want to (barring reasons like when I had Nailah kick enemies to death while in human form in part 1 for shits and giggles).

Ummm... Yes, while they're transformed and have a chance at killing a non-weakened unit. But why feed them kills? You have better people to use that get better EXP. >_>

And the point of having them attack while in normal form is so they can get EXP more than single digits...

You can't imagine how painful it was to have Nilah overkill the enemy and get 1 EXP... And Volug gets 9... But I'll have to try that technique... they may get double-digit EXP that way. >_>

[Hurricane Chris]

See, the thing about laguz growth rates is that their stats that aren't HP and Luck are doubled in animal form. So the low growth rates (when compared to beorc) compensate for that.

[Neofox]

With few exceptions, their growths besides HP and Luck are 45 or less... That's not good at all. >_>

I'm fairly certain 40% growths are considered stable in this game (or at least I'd think they are... I recall someone saying Mist's 35% strength growth in FE9 counts as stable, so I'm not sure why it'd be so different this time around).

Also, don't forget that each stat they gain counts as +2 for all intents and purposes since their stats double when transformed.

Needless to say, after using them a bit any only gaining HP and Luc, I didn't really see a point in using them... >_> They'd have, like, 4 more stats in each area after getting them 15 levels...

Which are actually 8 additional stats in each area because their stats double when they transform.

It may because I'm on easy mode, but I can definitely say that's not true, unless you mean (lol) untransformed, when they're not killing anything but fed kills... >_> My level 20/20/1 Nolan gets more EXP than my Ranulf ever did transformed...

That's because I got it wrong, they actually gain experience at the rate of a 3rd tier unit.

Ummm... Yes, while they're transformed and have a chance at killing a non-weakened unit. But why feed them kills? You have better people to use that get better EXP. >_>

Again, you keep forgetting that their stats double when transformed. Lethe's 12 base speed looks terrible, but that quickly becomes excellent once she morphs because she now has 24 speed, which is going to outrun every enemy in Part 2.

You can't imagine how painful it was to have Nilah overkill the enemy and get 1 EXP... And Volug gets 9... But I'll have to try that technique... they may get double-digit EXP that way. >_>

...Nailah is level 33, and Volug is level 15 at a point of the game where your units and enemies are almost all tier-1 units. How much EXP do you expect them to gain?

EDIT: Oh, how typical. I write out a highly detailed response and Hurricane Chris manages to sum it all up in a couple sentances...

[kryptonite]

See, the thing about laguz growth rates is that their stats that aren't HP and Luck are doubled in animal form. So the low growth rates (when compared to beorc) compensate for that.

I guess, but if you look at average stats, you can see that they don't grow that much... In 25 levels, Volug gets 6 Str- doubled would be 12. and 4-8 Def, and 5-10 Spd. That just doesn't seem worth it for the trouble and the EXP it takes... >_> Ulki's are all 3-6 for 15 levels, and Mordecai's final doubled speed is 24... That's horrendous. >_>

I'm fairly certain 40% growths are considered stable in this game (or at least I'd think they are... I recall someone saying Mist's 35% strength growth in FE9 counts as stable, so I'm not sure why it'd be so different this time around).

Which would be passing if the majority wasn't in the 10-30 range... >_>

Which are actually 8 additional stats in each area because their stats double when they transform.

I probably should have specified; That's already doubled. It's 2 undoubled... >_>

That's because I got it wrong, they actually gain experience at the rate of a 3rd tier unit.

You mean a level 1 Laguz = 3rd tier?

Lethe's 12 base speed looks terrible, but that quickly becomes excellent once she morphs because she now has 24 speed, which is going to outrun every enemy in Part 2.

But what about the fact that they need to transform at all? Haar massacres in part 2, and he actually gets decent EXP... without transforming.

...Nailah is level 33, and Volug is level 15 at a point of the game where your units and enemies are almost all tier-1 units. How much EXP do you expect them to gain?

More than single digits, for Volug... >_>

Although Skirmir is really good... I heard about the abusing Resolve method, and it works... And he actually gets EXP from kicking. >_> And can live!

[Neofox]

I guess, but if you look at average stats, you can see that they don't grow that much...

According to that site, here are the averages for Ranulf in his human and his transformed states, since he seems to be higly reccomended in my topic asking for which to use (rounding for his transformed state to make things easier):

Ranulf human:
64.8 HP 18 Str 8.1 Mag 20 Skill 19.9 Spd 30.7 Luk 15.1 Def 11.4 Res
Ranulf cat:
65 HP 36 Str 16 Mag 40 Skl 40 Spd 31 Luk 30 Def 22 Res

What do you know? Not bad at all compared to your other 3rd-tier units, and he starts out with pretty strong bases as well. He's not anything special while human, but he's at least capable of taking blows while he is to up his transformation meter. Besides, as Lord Raven said, by the end of the game it shouldn't be that hard to keep his meter up what with all the laguz stones and Olivi Grass you have available to you... I'd go as far as to say he's like a laguz version of Pent.

In 25 levels, Volug gets 6 Str- doubled would be 12. and 4-8 Def, and 5-10 Spd. That just doesn't seem worth it for the trouble and the EXP it takes... >_> That just doesn't seem worth it for the trouble and the EXP it takes... >_> Ulki's are all 3-6 for 15 levels, and Mordecai's final doubled speed is 24... That's horrendous. >_>

Totally ignore their bases, why don't you?

However, I think we can all agree Mordecai sucks in the end.

Which would be passing if the majority wasn't in the 10-30 range... >_>

Um... What?

I probably should have specified; That's already doubled. It's 2 undoubled... >_>

Then you're exaggerating. Yes, they're liable to get RNG-screwed, but so is everyone else.

You mean a level 1 Laguz = 3rd tier?

I was not aware you got any level 1 laguz.

But what about the fact that they need to transform at all? Haar massacres in part 2, and he actually gets decent EXP... without transforming.

I'm pretty sure Lethe and Mordecai can also massacre in part 2. In fact, I think just about anyone can, it's not that hard of a part (aside from the endgame mission, but everyone is helpful there).

EDIT: Also, Rookie is incorrect about laguz not gaining anything if they counterattack an enemy. I had Lethe revert when she had 12 left on her transformation meter, an enemy attacked her during the enemy phase, then when my phase came again her meter was maxed. She had to have gotten 15 from the fight, or else it wouldn't have refilled that fast.

[UchihaHunter]

@Neofox

You are also incorrect, as the meter fills up differently for different types of Laguz (at the very least; I haven't checked to see if it can be driven by individual character or not)

Also, Ranulf is fine as far as stats go, but...A: He's not Transformed all of the time, B: He gets nearly no experience until Part 4, and C: There's no reason at all to use him over the Hawks (both of which have Shove and Canto, and start off closer to Level 30 then he does.)

I used Volug, and he became a beast as soon as I: A. Removed Wildheart (halved EXP gains ftl) and B: Gave him Paragon (double experience gains ftw!).  He got to Level 30 in the Endgame, and owned many opponents with his Savage/Adept combo (he caps speed rather easily, I believe)  Plus, he's Earth, so all of his supports are inherently good.

Also, I used both Hawks, and let me tell you that Ulki's strength deficiency is pretty unimportant...once he gets to Level 30 (2 levels), he can get Tear, which triples his Strength when it activates...gg.  It also activates at Spd %, which for him is UBER.

Overall, though, even though I had fun with Volug, Kurth, and the Hawks, the only Laguz that I would recommend using on a regular basis would be the Royals (including the Herons)

[Neofox]

@Neofox

You are also incorrect, as the meter fills up differently for different types of Laguz (at the very least; I haven't checked to see if it can be driven by individual character or not)

Mordecai, Lethe, and Lyre have all gained 15 points to their meter when they were attacked, so I assumed it was the same for all of them.

Also, Ranulf is fine as far as stats go, but...A: He's not Transformed all of the time, B: He gets nearly no experience until Part 4, and C: There's no reason at all to use him over the Hawks (both of which have Shove and Canto, and start off closer to Level 30 then he does.)

Ranulf starts off at level 26. Is it really that hard to get him 4 levels?

I've already gone over how to deal with his transformation meter, so there's no need to continue that.

I used Volug, and he became a beast as soon as I: A. Removed Wildheart (halved EXP gains ftl) and B: Gave him Paragon (double experience gains ftw!).  He got to Level 30 in the Endgame, and owned many opponents with his Savage/Adept combo (he caps speed rather easily, I believe)  Plus, he's Earth, so all of his supports are inherently good.

Aside from the earth affinity and wildheart parts, what stops one from giving Ranulf the same? Especially Paragon, as it's easy to transfer the skill to Ike's team through Ilanya or one of the characters from part 2 if you removed it from Astrid or Geoffrey. Ranulf is required-use in a decent amount of chapters anyways, so why not make use of him?

Also, I used both Hawks, and let me tell you that Ulki's strength deficiency is pretty unimportant...once he gets to Level 30 (2 levels), he can get Tear, which triples his Strength when it activates...gg.  It also activates at Spd %, which for him is UBER.

By that same arguement it only takes 4 levels for Ranulf (who comes earlier then the hawks I might add) to hit level 30 and get his mastery skill, only he does not have strength problems that he needs his mastery skill to compensate for and Rend just makes him a whole lot better.

Overall, though, even though I had fun with Volug, Kurth, and the Hawks, the only Laguz that I would recommend using on a regular basis would be the Royals (including the Herons)

What about for those of us who like dancer-type units?

[Lord Fuckboy]

What about for those of us who like dancer-type units?

...  he said he recommended the herons, though.

[Neofox]

...  he said he recommended the herons, though.

Whoops! I thought he meant that of all the laguz, including the herons, only the royals were worth using...

[UchihaHunter]

Ranulf starts off at level 26. Is it really that hard to get him 4 levels?

No, that's why I mentioned what I did with Volug.  The level does still exist, though, and as far as characters to give Paragon to, considering that the Beorc can always fight and fight well, it makes more sense to use them more.  If you have preferences to use the Laguz, that's fine, because some of them don't suck, but that doesn't take away from the FACT that it is harder to use a non-Royal Laguz than it is to use a beorc.

Aside from earth affinity, what stops one from giving Ranulf the same? Especially Paragon, as it's easy to transfer the skill to Ike's team through Ilanya or one of the characters from part 2 if you removed it from Astrid or Geoffrey, and Ranulf is required-use in a decent amount of chapters as it is, so why not make use of him?

Again, nothing is stopping you from doing that, I was only stating that as an example.  Again, though, sans preferential treatment for Ranulf over your other characters, it's still harder for him to level up than your Beorc units.

By that same arguement it only takes 4 levels for Ranulf (who comes earlier then the hawks I might add) to hit level 30 and get his mastery skill, only he does not have strength problems and I'd argue that Rend is a better skill.

Canto alone makes the hawks better. (The master skills really don't matter for the Laguz as they nearly always result in a kill anyway, IMO)

The argument is not whether Ranulf or whomever completely sucks, but there are some that are just more convenient to use than others.  I constantly hear this "it just takes more strategy to use X" argument, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is less convenient to use said character.  Of course, you do get a total of 10 Laguz Gem uses (5 of which should be going to your Heron, IMO), but even then, the Laguz lose a turn of attacking and don't have a ranged weapon (with the exception of the Dragons), so the good Beorc are nearly always better to use than the non-Royal Laguz.

The line about the Herons was for those that seem to forget that all of the Herons that you can use in the game are royalty...

[Neofox]

No, that's why I mentioned what I did with Volug.  The level does still exist, though, and as far as characters to give Paragon to, considering that the Beorc can always fight and fight well, it makes more sense to use them more.  If you have preferences to use the Laguz, that's fine, because some of them don't suck, but that doesn't take away from the FACT that it is harder to use a non-Royal Laguz than it is to use a beorc.

That's indeed a point I cannot argue. Non-royal laguz do take more strategy to use than beorc units do, though contrary to popular belief that doesn't make them bad units.

Canto alone makes the hawks better.

I wouldn't count out the use in Shove, but I can see your point.

The argument is not whether Ranulf or whomever completely sucks, but there are some that are just more convenient to use than others.  I constantly hear this "it just takes more strategy to use X" argument, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is less convenient to use said character.  Of course, you do get a total of 10 Laguz Gem uses (5 of which should be going to your Heron, IMO), but even then, the Laguz lose a turn of attacking and don't have a ranged weapon (with the exception of the Dragons), so the good Beorc are nearly always better to use than the non-Royal Laguz.

I guess this is a point that I can't really argue... Although aren't there skills you can give laguz that deal with enemies that attack them at a range?

The line about the Herons was for those that seem to forget that all of the Herons that you can use in the game are royalty...

Understandable, a lot seem to only think of ones that ignore the transformation meter when they think of royalty laguz.

[Lord Fuckboy]

By that same arguement it only takes 4 levels for Ranulf (who comes earlier then the hawks I might add) to hit level 30 and get his mastery skill, only he does not have strength problems that he needs his mastery skill to compensate for and Rend just makes him a whole lot better.

Doesn't it take less for Hawks, who gain EXP at more or less the same rate..?
(Yeah, I forgot this point earlier)

Of course, you do get a total of 10 Laguz Gem uses (5 of which should be going to your Heron, IMO)

Unless you do some weird trade/convoy chain thing, they're only really going to be used for like 7 chapters, with the final chapter counting as around five...

[Neofox]

Doesn't it take less for Hawks, who gain EXP at more or less the same rate..?

The hawks need less levels but come later, Ranulf needs only a couple more and comes earlier, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.

[Lord Fuckboy]

To me, that's more or less the same level...  because Ranulf isn't even getting that much EXP in the meantime.

[UchihaHunter]

I wouldn't count out the use in Shove, but I can see your point.

The hawks (and raven) also have Shove (even though Ranulf can shove more people, I think...)

I guess this is a point that I can't really argue... Although aren't there skills you can give laguz that deal with enemies that attack them at a range?

Yea, but they suck, IMO.  The better ones (again, IMO) are Quickclaw for the Beast Tribe and Maelstrom for the Bird Tribe...however, they still activate on Strength %, I think, and they do damage equal to the unit's Strength (I'm not sure if they mean the strength of the unit attacking or the untransformed strength of the Laguz being attacked, but I'm sure that for Skrimir at least, it is not Transformed Strength.)

[kryptonite]

Besides, as Lord Raven said, by the end of the game it shouldn't be that hard to keep his meter up what with all the laguz stones and Olivi Grass you have available to you... I'd go as far as to say he's like a laguz version of Pent.

Honestly, I sell those things for money, and only save a few for Reyson... >_>

While untransformed, he's being doubled and can't really take a hit...

Totally ignore their bases, why don't you?

Their bases are pretty sad unless transformed... Nolan's bases are about the same as Volug's. >_>

And he gets more EXP...

Um... What?

Growths 40+:
Ulki: HP (65) Spd (40)
Volug: HP (95) Spd (40) Luc (90)
Mordy: HP (90) Luc (80) Def (45)

Then you're exaggerating. Yes, they're liable to get RNG-screwed, but so is everyone else.

Oh, sorry. I exaggerated by 1. It's 3 undoubled and 6 doubled. *points at Ulki*

I'm pretty sure Lethe and Mordecai can also massacre in part 2. In fact, I think just about anyone can, it's not that hard of a part (aside from the endgame mission, but everyone is helpful there).

>_> Haar gets... EXP...!

He also doesn't need to transform...!

He's also godly!

[Neofox]

Honestly, I sell those things for money, and only save a few for Reyson... >_>

What does that have to do with anything? If you're not going to use a laguz, of course you might as well sell them.

While untransformed, he's being doubled and can't really take a hit...

His absurdly high HP says he can, but you shouldn't be putting him into any significant danger while in human form, anyhow.

Their bases are pretty sad unless transformed... Nolan's bases are about the same as Volug's. >_>

Except Volug is forced to be in animal form at all times dureing part 1 due to Wildheart, which at that point in the game makes him one of your best units.

And speaking of which, I forgot that Wildheart also cuts the EXP he gains in half. That on top of the fact he's fighting mostly tier-1 units is why he didn't gain much EXP for you.

Growths 40+:
Ulki: HP (65) Spd (40)
Volug: HP (95) Spd (40) Luc (90)
Mordy: HP (90) Luc (80) Def (45)

...Why do you pull 3 seemingly random laguz out of your hat and claim that they're the only ones with growths higher than 40%?

Better examples of laguz with growth rates 40% or over, if you're truly convinced anything less is so terrible:
Kyza:
85% HP 40% Str 45% Skl 50% Luk 40% Def
Lyre:
50% HP 65% Skl 70% Spd 50% Luk
Muarim
60% HP 55% Str 45% Skl 55% Luk
Vika:
60% HP 50% Mag 60% Skl 60% Spd 65% Luk 65% Res

Oh, sorry. I exaggerated by 1. It's 3 undoubled and 6 doubled. *points at Ulki*

How many times must I say this? You cannot argue that they'll get RNG-screwed because any unit can be.

>_> Haar gets... EXP...!

Um... Not really unless you take Paragon off of Geoffrey or Astrid and put it in storage for him to use (but if you're doing that, anyone else could make use of it, too). He may be a tier-2 unit, but he's a pretty high-levelled one.

[kryptonite]

What does that have to do with anything? If you're not going to use a laguz, of course you might as well sell them.

You are in dire need for money in the first three parts of the game... >_>

His absurdly high HP says he can, but you shouldn't be putting him into any significant danger while in human form, anyhow.

Tell that to Ulki. OHKO with a Crossbow. >_>

Or Skrimir, who is barely alive from easy enemies (<3 Resolve)

And speaking of which, I forgot that Wildheart also cuts the EXP he gains in half. That on top of the fact he's fighting mostly tier-1 units is why he didn't gain much EXP for you.

It does? He got decent EXP at 3-13 (one vs. Ike) But what EXP do they get? >_> Tier 1? 2? 3?

...Why do you pull 3 seemingly random laguz out of your hat and claim that they're the only ones with growths higher than 40%?

They were the ones mentioned before... >_>

But I'm kind of wondering why none of those have both Str and Spd... But I guess the top three could be decent... >_>

How many times must I say this? You cannot argue that they'll get RNG-screwed because any unit can be.

Ulki gets ~3 stats on average...

14 -> 17 Str
17 -> 20 Skl
18 -> 21 Spd
11 -> 15 Def
10 -> 12 Res

In 13 levels... That's less than one every 4 levels... (Admittedly he rams those horrible Spd and Res caps)

Um... Not really unless you take Paragon off of Geoffrey or Astrid and put it in storage for him to use (but if you're doing that, anyone else could make use of it, too). He may be a tier-2 unit, but he's a pretty high-levelled one.

He's getting more than the laguz...

[Neofox]

You are in dire need for money in the first three parts of the game... >_>

Erm, no you aren't... Nor for the first two, anyways. For Part 3 I can understand, and for that I generally have Ilanya transport the Blue Gem from part 1 to help out there.

Tell that to Ulki. OHKO with a Crossbow. >_>

I thought we were talking about Ranulf?

And of course Ulki is going to get one-shot'd by a crossbow, the thing has 28 might and his weakness triples that! Units aren't going to fare well against something they're weak against, and putting them in a position to get hit by said weaknesses is hardly an error on their part.

Or Skrimir, who is barely alive from easy enemies (<3 Resolve)

And gets his meter near-filled and gives the chance for EXP to healers at the same time. Some additional strategy is required with laguz, I won't argue that, but it's not like it's as near-impossible as many like to act to use ones that rely on the meter.

It does? He got decent EXP at 3-13 (one vs. Ike) But what EXP do they get? >_> Tier 1? 2? 3?

I actually think it might be based on level, seeing as how their skill capacity depends on it...

They were the ones mentioned before... >_>

Still doesn't change the fact that each stat gain is effectively a +2 each on top of their generally decent bases, so the low growths are compensated by having each stat gain become more significant.

But I'm kind of wondering why none of those have both Str and Spd... But I guess the top three could be decent... >_>

They aren't necissarily bad in the stats that aren't 40%+ growths, they just don't have overkill growth in them.

14 -> 17 Str
17 -> 20 Skl
18 -> 21 Spd
11 -> 15 Def
10 -> 12 Res

You forgot to show what Ulki's stats are when transformed, so lemme help you out there:
34 Str
40 Skl
42 Spd
30 Def
24 Res

He's getting more than the laguz...

Barely.