Archers/bowfighters throughout the series

[Haken]

Anyone remember back in FE1/3 how seeing an enemy sniper on the field made you go "oh god" (save maybe the final chapters).

Anyway, yes bows>swords for them, that's what I was saying, I just meant they have access to swords which snipers don't to use in addition to their bows (which, of course, is the main weapon of theres most of the time).

Really? I always found it a relief. I didn't really see them as threatening...

He's hard to train? I personally never had an issue thanks to BEXP and, more importantly, that personal bow of his...

....Deja vu. I never considered it good to use BEXP on them, as physical level-ups provide generally better stats most of the time (for me anyway, but I believe it was rigged to be that), plus it doesn't give Weapon exp either. Would you honestly just give Rolf Arms Scrolls?

Rolf and Shinon end up fairly equal if we wish to go purely by averages, actually. It's mostly high availability vs high maintenance between the two.

While I agree silver knights are underrated, I must point out that dracoknights are not weak to bows anymore in FE10 (for some stupid reason).

They're the only choice for snipers in the game, and they're both decent as defined by those qualities you just named. Whoever you choose is up to you, but you can't really go wrong with Snipers as long as you train them dilligently.

....Oh yeah. I cannnot really comprehend how I forget that, it was one of the many things which made Jill and Haar usable. Either way, Silver Knights are still an excellent choice for a mounted unit and the fact still stands they are more reliable than snipers when it comes to damage. Plus, the more kills= uber-er weapon system from FE4 is gone, so using bows is a small alternative to wasting weapons that are actually strong enough or versatile enough to take down high defense units (barring the wishblade), such as the Brave lance or Silver (Great) Lances.

[Lord Fuckboy]

....Deja vu. I never considered it good to use BEXP on them, as physical level-ups provide generally better stats most of the time (for me anyway, but I believe it was rigged to be that), plus it doesn't give Weapon exp either. Would you honestly just give Rolf Arms Scrolls?

Going by the actual game mechanics, FE9 != FE10 in BEXP mechanics.  You can get whatever level you want from FE9 BEXP.

Anyone remember back in FE1/3 how seeing an enemy sniper on the field made you go "oh god" (save maybe the final chapters).

FE10 NM and HM do that too.   Those steel bow archers are CUNTS.

I just meant they have access to swords which snipers don't to use in addition to their bows (which, of course, is the main weapon of theres most of the time).

So basically you're saying they have Swords to fall back on whenever necessary, an advantage over Snipers?  If so, I pretty much agree with that.

[SlippyToasterTrooper_UK]

A few things to add to this discussion.

I was going to mention FE1 shooters but then I remembered they used a completely different weapon type. So instead i'll say about FE1s bowgun. It was a pretty nifty weapon. Maybe a bit strong which is why it went the way of the dodo along with the Hammer...

FE Gaiden. The archers supreme range was sweet (though I felt the reliable accuracy that has kept then usful, in my eyes anyway was lost somewhat) but what wasn't was the fact the Holy Bow was hidden in a really obscure place.

As far as FE4 goes. I always gave Jamukas Killer Bow to Mideel. Jamuka is good enough to live without it (and its low, low weight). Mideel on the other hand could really do with that. It helps even them out. Jamuka is still great (admitingly his movement lets him down on FE4s large maps) and Mideel is rather good as a result.

I'm surprsied nobodies mentioned about FE9/10 that fact that shooting through walls vanished. Also the fact that foot archers are the only ones that can use the longbow (I always end up with too many of these for my good...its hard to find a time when you truely need them). I've not played FE10 but my understanding is the mounted units got a bit too nerfed and Marksmens were rather buffed up. I'd say the Crows in FE9 are enough of a reason to want high accuracy weapons that happen to be effetive vs. them.

[Neofox]

You can shoot over obstacles in FE10. You can't in FE9, but the ability comes back in FE10 for both bows and magic.

I also don't think mounted bow-users were nerfed in FE10 so much the fact Astrid takes some levelling to get up to par along with fairly unimpressive availablility. Plus by the time you get her for a decent amount of time, your archers will probably have overall better stats, which is what I think puts off most people from using her.

[ShinQuickMan]

 I'm not especially fond of foot archers. In most games, they don't even deal adequate damage and just add to the list of uits I want (or more like have) to defend. The only time I really see them shine are in indoor maps, where narrow passages allow me to block them easily in place of a group of melee units; even so, mages could easily take the archer's job of indirect fire, and are often more versatile either way. If I need an archer, I'll take mounted archers, who could run away when they have to instead of needing someone to hold their hand all the time.

 Well, except FE2 and FE4 archers anyway...

[Neofox]

If I need an archer, I'll take mounted archers, who could run away when they have to instead of needing someone to hold their hand all the time.

To be fair, mounted archers can only hit and run in FE4, 5, 9, and 10. They could not do that in 1-3 and 6-8.

[camus the dark knight]

Really? I always found it a relief. I didn't really see them as threatening...

Well first one you face has like 12 skill and 14 speed (and caps are 20 mind you) while most of your guys are only level 10 non-promoted, and he has high move compared to most of your guys, he's also in a tough spot, at that point, we will get to attack at least once (unless by some miracle your social knight charges him and gets a critical strong enough to kill him). And you must keep in mind that skill=critical in FE3, so 12 skill is a pure 12 critical hit, which will probably leave him an opening of 3% on average. They throw a few more around, but in the later chapters they have lost their luster since your guys can take them no prob most of the time.

I don't know though, I might possibly be the fact I have poor experiences with FE1/3 enemy snipers getting critical hits often...

Unless you meant archers, which well, yeah they do suck.



Seems I overestimated the speed by a little, but by enemy standards it's still good (6 AS when most of yours save sword users and mages will be struggling for 3). The level 20 ones reach 17 or 18/20.



And here is a level 20...

[Haken]

Seems I overestimated the speed by a little, but by enemy standards it's still good (6 AS when most of yours save sword users and mages will be struggling for 3). The level 20 ones reach 17 or 18/20.

Are you serious? This is a level 1 Sniper with 6 AS. Oguma, Navvare, Raddy and Maric had attack speed very close or even above that par unpromoted (Navvare lv. 20>8 AS). I'd post an image, but I have no photobucket.

Overall though, I 'd have to say that they ARE slightly threatening due to their placement on the maps, but this can often go against them when they can be cornered (we know there is no crossbows) they met a social knight or some other unit with high defense, or other units besides mounted ones may reach them (Ch.7 Sniper can be easily reached by MARTH even). 

Oh, and yes, the archers suck unpromoted.

[camus the dark knight]

Yes but merely because the use swords (notice I say non-sword users?, swords have a weight of 2-3, bows a 5-8), none of your sword users can reach and kill him prior to him attacking you. Even if they do reach him, they will only be dealing 5-10 damage, so you will need to score a critical, unless you can lure him out and gank him, which means dealing with his critical.

EDIT: If a mounted person runs over and dismounts, they can attack with a sword, however it's very unlikely they will kill him and then they will most likely get slaughtered by the 3 of them (while archers suck and are easy to kill, they are not pushovers when it comes to hitting their target thanks to bows 100% hit rate and FE3s poor evasion).

Mind you I never find anything "hard" in general, I am merely using hard as a description compared to the normal game difficulty. While I do not fear enemy snipers as this awesome unit that I have next to no chance of killing, I do however have a healthy respect for that 3-5% critical hit they have on most units, because as I have seen countless times, it's not to be ignored...

And fyi Marth can't reach the sniper unless you warp him to it, which hardly warrants a warp staff use in my opinion, remember Marth and the Sniper have 7 movement, but the sniper has an attack range of 2 meaning you will have to enter the edge of it to reach him on the next turn (and he will attack) or charge him and then attack on your next turn (and again, he will attack)...

To be honest though, Marth is surprisingly, the best bait for him, not people like Doga, Cain, or Abel. Marth uses swords and has enough natural speed to prevent doubling as well as enough HP on average to take a hit and his luck is high enough to negate the critical.


Also my main critical fear comes from FE1 which has enemy snipers (and heros) with the same skill as FE3, the one exception being... luck doesn't reduce critical hit in FE1... and when you are forced to lure a sniper out with a pure 11+ critical and the fact that any unit they critical= dead, you learn to hate them.



Here is your first FE3 sniper encounter, while quite manageable, it's not exactly what I would call "a relief". Archers are thrown in there for good measure, they also make rushing quite risky. you can lure out the first archer and kill him, then lure the sniper and hope he doesn't score a critical (not too difficult in FE3, but keep in mind how this part is in FE1 where you cannot lower critical rate).

[Neofox]

To be honest though, Marth is surprisingly, the best bait for him, not people like Doga, Cain, or Abel. Marth uses swords and has enough natural speed to prevent doubling as well as enough HP on average to take a hit and his luck is high enough to negate the critical.

Doesn't the Fire Emblem negate the enemy's critical chance? Or does he not have it by then? I can't remember...

[Lord Kratos]

Didn't read the whole topic but here goes my opinion: with the exception of FE4, foot archers are outclassed (I can't speak for FE1, 2 and 10, tough. I have no experience with those)

In all games they have the trouble of being less useful than the rest of the party during enemy phase, in FE5 they can't capture, and they don't even have high move or something else to compensate.

[Neofox]

In all games they have the trouble of being less useful than the rest of the party during enemy phase, in FE5 they can't capture, and they don't even have high move or something else to compensate.

Tanya is very nice in terms of raw stats, has great availability, and a notable CC rate. I believe the only one clearly better than her is Roberto, and he is just as locked to bows as she is (especially in indoor chapters, where he is just another sniper).

Next up... How are they outclassed in FE3 and 9? Nobody can seem to dodge in those games. Indirect attacks are welcome since they don't risk a counter most of the time (and in FE3, it's not particularly hard for a sniper to out-damage a mage... yeah, mages hit resistance, but enemies tend to actually have it this time around and the mages you get don't have all that impressive strength growth to compensate). Same applies to FE1 and 2 (moreso for 2 because they can attack from 5 spaces away). FE10 it doesn't matter since Marksmen can attack from 3 spaces away with any bow they wish.

As for being ineffective during the enemy phase? Specify, please.

[theshim is the shimiest shim of all the shims that ever shim]

Oh, ye gods no, not again.

His claim is the fact that they cannot counter during enemy phase when attacked by melee units.  Thus, they will ultimately slow you down compared to any other unit who could counter against them.

Personally, as I have already stated, I think this is bunk...

[Lord Kratos]

Tanya is very nice in terms of raw stats, has great availability, and a notable CC rate. I believe the only one clearly better than her is Roberto, and he is just as locked to bows as she is (especially in indoor chapters, where he is just another sniper).

Class-Class competition is not the only one that matters. Moar like the one that matters less, actually. A unit competes for a spot against every other character, not just against the ones of their same class/weapon. Considering this, Tanya (and every other archer, for that matter) has a disadvantage compared with most of the cast because of not being able to capture and fight melee (thus her notable CC becomes less notable). Tanya's stats and availability are alright, of course. Class is the problem.

Next up... How are they outclassed in FE3 and 9?

In FE3, they are kinda hard to build up (like, Gordon takes a while so start doubling) and low movement kinda bothers me. Kashim is good, tough. However, he still has the trouble of not being able to go melee.

FE9: Rolf's joining situation is bad. Shinon's also pretty bad; overlevelled early, crappy stats when he rejoins. Plus the classical class problem (what shim said). And in this game, they would be more outclassed than in FE3, because stuff like Javelins are more effective (they don't weigh 20 >_>) so they lost what made them unique.

As for being ineffective during the enemy phase? Specify, please.

What theshim said

[Neofox]

Class-Class competition is not the only one that matters. Moar like the one that matters less, actually. A unit competes for a spot against every other character, not just against the ones of their same class/weapon. Considering this, Tanya (and every other archer, for that matter) has a disadvantage compared with most of the cast because of not being able to capture and fight melee (thus her notable CC becomes less notable). Tanya's stats and availability are alright, of course. Class is the problem.

You face a decent amount of dragon and pegasus riders throughout the game. You'll want at least a couple bow-users since they're going to pretty much garuntee a kill on them (and as per usual, they're units you really don't want to let live if at all possible...). Archers can't capture them, yes, but then again, no-one else can either since they count as mounted units. Magic can also work, but bow-users don't have to worry about speed loss while spellcasters do since tomes reduce speed no matter what. I'll also note that while some units like generals can use bows after they've been promoted, good luck getting them to a decent bow level by a decent amount of time before the end of the game.

In FE3, they are kinda hard to build up (like, Gordon takes a while so start doubling) and low movement kinda bothers me. Kashim is good, tough. However, he still has the trouble of not being able to go melee.

If they really give you that much trouble, promote them early. Everything caps at 20, so aside from max HP, it shouldn't make a real difference if you miss out on say... 7-5 levels (especially in Book 1, as they won't be hitting level 20 unpromoted until almost the end of the game, anyhow). Sniper promotion bonuses are especially nice, so Gordon/Ryan/etc. won't mind promoting early to reap the benefits of better stats, sooner. Fixed EXP gain doesn't hurt the idea, either.

FE9: Rolf's joining situation is bad. Shinon's also pretty bad; overlevelled early, crappy stats when he rejoins. Plus the classical class problem (what shim said). And in this game, they would be more outclassed than in FE3, because stuff like Javelins are more effective (they don't weigh 20 >_>) so they lost what made them unique.

Rolf's joining situation isn't bad at all. Lethe and Mordecai are in there as Ally units, which means any EXP they get is dumped into your BEXP vat, and his personal weapon is basically a steel bow with a crit boost, making it easy to finish off weakened enemies for a few levels (and a bit more with BEXP should be enough to get him up to speed). It also grants him double WEXP, so it won't be long before he can use better bows. Shinon also takes some work, but his growths are some of the best in the game to compensate. Javelins and hand-axes are lighter, yes, but still inaccurate despite most being able to use them without weight loss. Sure, you could forge a few high-accuracy ones, but A. that can really add up if you do it more than once or twice (yeah, you get plenty of money in FE9, but even that will drop like a rock if you abuse the Forge system), and B. bows are far, far more cost-effective... heck, its even cheaper to just forge a stronger bow than a more accurate javelin/hand-axe. Snipers getting the swordmaster critical bonus doesn't hurt, either.

What theshim said

Archers are going to be in the backline, so they most likely won't be attacked. If an enemy breaks through, archers come in use there since they will redirect enemy fire away from your fragile healers. Not only that, but only one can attack the archer before they block the way and prevent others from attacking them. If any more attack the archer (assuming the player isn't a moron who put them in the middle of somewhere they obviously don't belong), it will then have to be at a range, where the archer will give them a friendly arrow to the face.

[camus the dark knight]

Doesn't the Fire Emblem negate the enemy's critical chance? Or does he not have it by then? I can't remember...

Yes it does actually, thank you for reminding me. All the more reason he's actually good at it... In FE1 he doesn't actually receive it as an in-game item if I am remembering correctly, so you still got a problem with them (unless he has some sort of anti-critical hidden skill I am unaware of, sort of like how Cyas is immune to status staffs in FE5 for no apparent reason)...

[Lord Kratos]

You face a decent amount of dragon and pegasus riders throughout the game. You'll want at least a couple bow-users since they're going to pretty much garuntee a kill on them (and as per usual, they're units you really don't want to let live if at all possible...). Archers can't capture them, yes, but then again, no-one else can either since they count as mounted units. Magic can also work, but bow-users don't have to worry about speed loss while spellcasters do since tomes reduce speed no matter what. I'll also note that while some units like generals can use bows after they've been promoted, good luck getting them to a decent bow level by a decent amount of time before the end of the game.

Peggies aren't much of an issue. They have pretty weak defenses; anyone can take care of them. Wyverns are stronger, sure, but an axe, or even a lance user does the job just fine. There is also magic, as you said, and magic users are waaaaaaaay better than archers. Melee, ranged, target MAG, and healing. Speed less is hardly an issue since thay are fast units (Asvel, Homer. Olwen has Daim Thunder, which is a brave weapon, anyway, etc.).

Also, wyverns have very good movement. Add the fact that they ignore terrain and you have enemies that can fly around the frontline and target your bow user, who can't do anything about it.

Overall, archers may have somewhat of an advantage here, but they look far from cool units.

If they really give you that much trouble, promote them early. Everything caps at 20, so aside from max HP, it shouldn't make a real difference if you miss out on say... 7-5 levels (especially in Book 1, as they won't be hitting level 20 unpromoted until almost the end of the game, anyhow). Sniper promotion bonuses are especially nice, so Gordon/Ryan/etc. won't mind promoting early to reap the benefits of better stats, sooner. Fixed EXP gain doesn't hurt the idea, either.

I agree completely.

Rolf's joining situation isn't bad at all. Lethe and Mordecai are in there as Ally units, which means any EXP they get is dumped into your BEXP vat, and his personal weapon is basically a steel bow with a crit boost, making it easy to finish off weakened enemies for a few levels (and a bit more with BEXP should be enough to get him up to speed).
[...]

IIRC, Lethe and Mordecai's kills don't add BEXP. I'm 100% sure Tanith's reinforcements don't add BEXP, but I'm not sure about these two. It would be nice if someone could confirm.

On the subject of Rolf, his bow is not that good. 1 Mt, some hit and 5 Crt? Meh, he still sucks because of his low bases. Shinon gets some decent stats, but it's not worth it to build him up, IMO. Bad class + bad stats when he rejoins. Endgame stats are not everything.

On the subject of Javelin/hand axe and forging. Adding something not named might is a waste when forging. Enemies dodge even less than your units, plus some supports add hit, so you shouldn't have troubles hitting. As for cost efficiency, a hand axe uses 3 more gold per use than an Iron bow. Insignificant advantage.

Archers are going to be in the backline, so they most likely won't be attacked. If an enemy breaks through, archers come in use there since they will redirect enemy fire away from your fragile healers. Not only that, but only one can attack the archer before they block the way and prevent others from attacking them. If any more attack the archer (assuming the player isn't a moron who put them in the middle of somewhere they obviously don't belong), it will then have to be at a range, where the archer will give them a friendly arrow to the face.

Not sure how the enemy AI works but if they can attack the healer, maybe they would ignore the archer altogether.

Anyway, what you said pretty much gives more strenght to the argument against archers. If they have to stay at the backline and you shouldn't put them at the middle of the battlefield then they have less flexibility than every other combat class.

[Shadow Slayer]

I think just like in FE10, FE9 has friendly army exp, which adds the XP of the friendlys into your BEXP pool. Again I think it does that.

[Neofox]

Peggies aren't much of an issue. They have pretty weak defenses; anyone can take care of them. Wyverns are stronger, sure, but an axe, or even a lance user does the job just fine.

Point taken, I suppose.

There is also magic, as you said, and magic users are waaaaaaaay better than archers. Melee, ranged, target MAG, and healing. Speed less is hardly an issue since thay are fast units (Asvel, Homer. Olwen has Daim Thunder, which is a brave weapon, anyway, etc.).

I'll admit that Asvel and Homeros are fast, but Asvel has some issues with his magic power and Olwen has problems with fatigue (much like most prepromotes). Daim Thunder is a brave effect, but that 12 weight kills her speed pretty terribly. If it doesn't kill them, she stands a risk of getting doubled. Need a Brave effect weapon? Use the Hero Bow. Won't kill Tanya or Roberto's speed and is very good at killing, as well. It's no doubt one of the best weapons in the game, too.

Also, wyverns have very good movement. Add the fact that they ignore terrain and you have enemies that can fly around the frontline and target your bow user, who can't do anything about it.

Eh? This argument makes no sense. The only time it might happen is chapter 14, and even then, they come at the tail-end of it.

Overall, archers may have somewhat of an advantage here, but they look far from cool units.

They're not the best, but they're not useless.

IIRC, Lethe and Mordecai's kills don't add BEXP. I'm 100% sure Tanith's reinforcements don't add BEXP, but I'm not sure about these two. It would be nice if someone could confirm.

Then why do chapters where I use Tanith's reinforcements give me more BEXP than times when I do the same chapter and don't?

On the subject of Rolf, his bow is not that good. 1 Mt, some hit and 5 Crt? Meh, he still sucks because of his low bases.

Huh? Rolf's Bow has 8 might, not 1. It has 100% hit and 5% crit. Its a good weapon for getting him off the ground, which is precisely what he needs. Bases? They're enough to finish weakened enemies, which is all he really needs to get a few levels and catch up to the team.

Shinon gets some decent stats, but it's not worth it to build him up, IMO. Bad class + bad stats when he rejoins. Endgame stats are not everything.

Endgame stats help decide whether or not units are worth building up. They're not everything, but they can't be ignored, either. His endgame averages are good, and within a few levels his growths should take effect and make him a contributing member of the team.

On the subject of Javelin/hand axe and forging. Adding something not named might is a waste when forging. Enemies dodge even less than your units, plus some supports add hit, so you shouldn't have troubles hitting.

55-60% hit was considered bad in the GBA games, and enemies as a whole have superior stats in FE9. How is that much hit no longer bad?

As for supports? You make it sound easier to compensate than it is. Specify how this helps you. Especially since supports in FE9 and 10 only give boosts to 1 or 2 stats, and most of the ones that do give hit% aren't very good in the long run.

Not sure how the enemy AI works but if they can attack the healer, maybe they would ignore the archer altogether.

AI is a lot more predictable than you make it sound. If given a choice between Nanna and Roberto, they aren't going to attack the one that will give them a sword to the face.

Anyway, what you said pretty much gives more strenght to the argument against archers. If they have to stay at the backline and you shouldn't put them at the middle of the battlefield then they have less flexibility than every other combat class.

Erm.. what? Even units that can counter at close-range won't be in the middle of the battlefield to be attacked from all sides like that. That giving too many kills to a single unit. You'll want to move up everyone together so that everyone gains EXP at the same time.

[Lord Kratos]

Just a few points I want to counter cause everything else would be going in circles, or are unimportant points.

Then why do chapters where I use Tanith's reinforcements give me more BEXP than times when I do the same chapter and don't?

Could be that you took less turns. I have made several tests where I gave Tanith's reinforcements some kills and in I didn't receive extra BEXP. You can activate a screen that tells you after the end of each chapter why did you receive the BEXP.

Huh? Rolf's Bow has 8 might, not 1. It has 100% hit and 5% crit. Its a good weapon for getting him off the ground, which is precisely what he needs. Bases? They're enough to finish weakened enemies, which is all he really needs to get a few levels and catch up to the team.

wooops. Forgot to mention I was comparing Rofl's bow to iron bow (that's why I said 1 extra MT). Also, if he needs special treatment that just proves that his joining situation is bad.

Endgame stats help decide whether or not units are worth building up. They're not everything, but they can't be ignored, either. His endgame averages are good, and within a few levels his growths should take effect and make him a contributing member of the team.

I agree with the first part. Then the question to determine an unit's worth would be "what is greater: the benefits you get after raising an unit, or, the detriments that involve training him/her?"

In the case of Shinon, it's basically "average to good performance vs needing babying/bexp to improve his bad bases and class limiting him during enemy turn.

In my opinion, it's simply not worthy to raise him.

55-60% hit was considered bad in the GBA games, and enemies as a whole have superior stats in FE9. How is that much hit no longer bad?

As for supports? You make it sound easier to compensate than it is. Specify how this helps you. Especially since supports in FE9 and 10 only give boosts to 1 or 2 stats, and most of the ones that do give hit% aren't very good in the long run.

Units had problems hitting with handaxes/javelins in the GBA? That's news to me.

Anyway, let's check an example. The most inaccurate axe user I found was Haar. Let's say he's lv 18 (23 Skl, 13 Lck) and gets 10 Hit from his supports with Jill and Mak. Let's also suppose we have a decent enemy; a Paladin with 48 Avoid. Haar (hand axe) has 76 hit, which is pretty good. This is without adding hit from the use of 2 RNs or WTA, btw.

Also, good characters with affinities that give Hit (like Wind, Light and Fire) are kinda common.

Erm.. what? Even units that can counter at close-range won't be in the middle of the battlefield to be attacked from all sides like that. That giving too many kills to a single unit. You'll want to move up everyone together so that everyone gains EXP at the same time.

weeee point dodge. You certainly adressed how you don't put a lone unit in the middle of everything. However, you don't talk about the disadvantage of archers: depending on standing behind other units while other units don't.

As you said earlier in your post "They're not the best, but they're not useless." and I agree with you. However, they certainly have less flexibility than basically the rest of the party