Archers/bowfighters throughout the series

[Lord Kratos]

Coming in chapter 1 in a game where EXP gain is fixed (hence why even I don't bother arguing the worthfulness of units like Est) and having absolutely awesome promotion bonuses in a game where everything caps at 20.

Also, Wendell is only useful until Maric or Linda promote. He makes a durable temporary healer on top of Rena/Yumina, but you don't want to use him long-term, and even while he's useful he really shouldn't be fighting too often.

Comes in chapter 1, yes, but has fail movement and until he promotes and is useless during enemy phase. And he has no AS, so he needs you to set up kills for him.

Maric comes 3 chapters later, but with a more solid offense, and Wendel comes one chapter after Maric with great speed (thus offense) and he gets good WLVL to use any staff.

Gordon only begins comparing in battle performance when he promotes, but then Maric get staves, so Gordon loses.

As for Wendel, he will still be a healer with decent durability, even tough his battle skills are not good lategame. Healing is still more valuable than bows.

[Neofox]

Comes in chapter 1, yes, but has fail movement and until he promotes and is useless during enemy phase. And he has no AS, so he needs you to set up kills for him.

Your "useless during the enemy phase" argument has been dealt with repeatedly. What's more, nobody can dodge, so indirect attacks are always welcome where available. Especially early in the game where everyone not named Doga can't take more than a few hits, so you are going to want as much safety from counterattacks as possible. His AS is just fine once he gains a few levels, as enemies are not exactly fast in FE1 or 3 (and gaining levels is very easy for units that come early). Movement means little since he is most likely going to be behind your front lines.

Maric comes 3 chapters later, but with a more solid offense, and Wendel comes one chapter after Maric with great speed (thus offense) and he gets good WLVL to use any staff.

You're acting like this is a GBA FE we're talking about. It doesn't matter that magic hits resistance, Maric and Linda have crap for strength growth on top of a low base of 1. Gordon starts with 5 and has more strength growth, which means he will easily out-damage them as his strength and speed go up. Moreso once he gets those sexy promotion bonuses.

Wendell isn't worth using long-term, but I'll get to him later.

Gordon only begins comparing in battle performance when he promotes, but then Maric get staves, so Gordon loses.

Once again, you're acting like we're talking about GBA mages here. Gordon is going to be more powerful from the start than Maric or Linda, and while they get staves after promotion, Gordon is still far superior in combat performance.

As for Wendel, he will still be a healer with decent durability, even tough his battle skills are not good lategame. Healing is still more valuable than bows.

Healers are to heal and fighters are to fight. As a fighter, Wendell fails and Gordon kills. Late in the game Gordon is a useful and contributing member of the team as a fighter, while Wendell will be dropped as a healer since Maric or Linda will be freshly promoted by then to assist Rena on the healing front. Strictly between Gordon and Wendell, Gordon will be staying.

[Ayanami]

Wendell isn't worth using long-term, but I'll get to him later.
Once again, you're acting like we're talking about GBA mages here. Gordon is going to be more powerful from the start than Maric or Linda, and while they get staves after promotion, Gordon is still far superior in combat performance.
Healers are to heal and fighters are to fight. As a fighter, Wendell fails and Gordon kills. Late in the game Gordon is a useful and contributing member of the team as a fighter, while Wendell will be dropped as a healer since Maric or Linda will be freshly promoted by then to assist Rena on the healing front. Strictly between Gordon and Wendell, Gordon will be staying.

The only thing that Gordon will fail in is movement in the trees and desert and that you want to use Rena heavily, as she is the only character in the game that can repair weapons.

[ShinQuickMan]

But as I stated before, that's only really inarguable in the GBA games. For the others, archers have at least something over mages (such as easily dealing more damage in FE1-3, being able to attack from further away in FE2 and 10, not garunteed to lose speed from their weapons in FE5, etc.).

 FE1: No argument. Mages may be tougher and have powerful unique weapons, but they're simply too weak and stay weak.

FE2: No argument. Archers have more range, could attack up close, and do this without draining HP

FE3 book one: Mages finally start gaining strength, even if it is rather small. And, aside from Kashim, they'll still move further and are quite a bit tougher than archers. My preference goes slightly more to mages, aside from Kashim of course.

Book two: Now, this is where mages start getting the upper hand. Same situation as in book one, except that they have more use with effective weapons (fire, shaver, blizzard). And then their's Yubello... and archers still being very frail... and healing after promotion... Yep, to me, diversity and toughness reigns supreme here (except for Kashim again, whose the only archer worth using in this game)...

FE4: The only class that really, really suck in this game are generals. Moving on...

FE5: Archers are a joke in this game Their only advantage over mages is attack speed; that's it. Beyond that, they're just crippled mages. And there's really no reason to promote archers either, since snipers don't even gain significant stat bonuses, new weapons, or skills. If you need an archer, just use Roberto, as he's the only one worth using a Hero's Proof on...

[Lord Kratos]

Your "useless during the enemy phase" argument has been dealt with repeatedly. What's more, nobody can dodge, so indirect attacks are always welcome where available. Especially early in the game where everyone not named Doga can't take more than a few hits, so you are going to want as much safety from counterattacks as possible. His AS is just fine once he gains a few levels, as enemies are not exactly fast in FE1 or 3 (and gaining levels is very easy for units that come early). Movement means little since he is most likely going to be behind your front lines.

Saying "FE is a strategy game, lulz" doesn't prove my argument wrong. Your argument of needing to change your strategy to suit an archer says he needs special treatment, which is not a good thing.

Indirect attacks are always welcome, I agree, and thankfully mages can attack ranged. Also, attacking during enemy phase is always welcome. Mages can do that, archers can't. Mages=winrars

Gordon's AS is fine? Hell no. Iron bows have 4 Wt, he has 4 Spd. With his  growht of 30, by level 10 he'll have like 6 speed, which translates to 2 AS. Still can't double. He needs to promote as soon as possible. I'd say he reaches level 10 between chapters 10-12. Not doubling during 50% of the game is awful.

Low movement doesn't mean little. A unit like Gordon can only stay backline. A unit with more move can stay both front or backline. Flexibility ftw.

You're acting like this is a GBA FE we're talking about. It doesn't matter that magic hits resistance, Maric and Linda have crap for strength growth on top of a low base of 1. Gordon starts with 5 and has more strength growth, which means he will easily out-damage them as his strength and speed go up. Moreso once he gets those sexy promotion bonuses.

Maric. Base level. Blizza. 7 Atk, 4 Spd.
Gordon. Lv 4. Iron Bow. 11 Atk, 0 AS

Right now, against common enemies like social knights and archers (with DEF-RES difference of 6 and 0 speed) Maric is utterly destroying Gordon. Stuff like pirates have only 3 Def/0 Res, but Maric doubles them so he wins. Against Armor Knights, Maric is simply the best unit you have right now. Not to mention he can easily kill bosses with Excalibur.

Then enemies' defense keeps growing but resistance doesn't, and Gordon can't double until promotion, so things look like this at least during the first part of the game. Then later Maric gets a MAG boost from promotion, you get moar tomes and staves, so he>>Gordon through all the game.

Healers are to heal and fighters are to fight. As a fighter, Wendell fails and Gordon kills. Late in the game Gordon is a useful and contributing member of the team as a fighter, while Wendell will be dropped as a healer since Maric or Linda will be freshly promoted by then to assist Rena on the healing front. Strictly between Gordon and Wendell, Gordon will be staying.

Having 3 healers is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good thing since as you have said several times in this topic, in FE3 you can't dodge reliably.

Then it comes to several things,,,

-Earlygame, Wendel is better at combat and can heal, and is useful during both phases.
-Few characters can heal. Most of the cast can fight (and better than Gordon). This makes Wendel more valuable and unique.
-Lategame, both are near to useless enemy phase. This means that Gordon has to be tons better than Wendel during your phase so he can match the clear superiority Wendel had during the first half of the game. Of course, in a healer vs archer debaet, that never happens.
-Being a healer means an own experience poll, basically, since there is always enough to heal. Being a combat unit means sharing experience with the other combat units.
-As a minor point, Wendel doesn't need a promo item.

Wendel >> Gordon.

gg

[Neofox]

Saying "FE is a strategy game, lulz" doesn't prove my argument wrong. Your argument of needing to change your strategy to suit an archer says he needs special treatment, which is not a good thing.

Clearly I should have specified what I meant... I didn't mean you need to alter your strategy to completely revolve around them. We're not talking about training Est here, after all. What I mean is stuff like...

-Not everyone in your army is going to be counterattacking on the enemy phase, anyways. If he replaces someone that wouldn't have been attacked anyways, it doesn't matter whether he can counterattack or not.
-They can be used to lure in an enemy (and don't say "disarm Doga", because then you'll have to waste someone's turn to give him his weapons back)
-Front and backlines exist. They'll be in your backline most of the time, where units like them and your healers should not be getting attacked in the first place.

Indirect attacks are always welcome, I agree, and thankfully mages can attack ranged. Also, attacking during enemy phase is always welcome. Mages can do that, archers can't. Mages=winrars

Do you frontline with Marik or something? I'm pretty sure mercenaries and cavvys are much more suited to that job... Seriously though, mages have low HP and low defenses, so they are also going to be in your backline. Especially since they can't get enough dodge to save themselves like in other FEs.

Gordon's AS is fine? Hell no. Iron bows have 4 Wt, he has 4 Spd. With his  growht of 30, by level 10 he'll have like 6 speed, which translates to 2 AS. Still can't double. He needs to promote as soon as possible. I'd say he reaches level 10 between chapters 10-12. Not doubling during 50% of the game is awful.

Why is this a major issue for him, but not for units like Kain, Abel, or Doga? None of them can double at the start, either. That also helps Gordon train, because they'll attack each enemy once, then Gordon can clean up. You get more EXP for killing than attacking, so sticking to that plan makes Gordon easier to train without harming your strategy since he then moves up with the entire group.

Low movement doesn't mean little. A unit like Gordon can only stay backline. A unit with more move can stay both front or backline. Flexibility ftw.

Then screw using archers AND mages because Mercenaries, Cavaliers, and Marth have more movement than both. Ignore that you're not going to be using up everyone's max amount of movement each turn.

Oh yeah, and you ignore that Gordon has 7 movement after promotion. We all agree Gordon is going to promote early, at which point he'll fix whatever problems may have existed before (as well as go further than a good number of your units).

Right now, against common enemies like social knights and archers (with DEF-RES difference of 6 and 0 speed) Maric is utterly destroying Gordon. Stuff like pirates have only 3 Def/0 Res, but Maric doubles them so he wins. Against Armor Knights, Maric is simply the best unit you have right now. Not to mention he can easily kill bosses with Excalibur.

With 7 attack power, Marik is not killing anything even though he doubles since enemies have more than 14 HP. He needs enemies to be softened up just like Gordon.

Then enemies' defense keeps growing but resistance doesn't, and Gordon can't double until promotion, so things look like this at least during the first part of the game. Then later Maric gets a MAG boost from promotion, you get moar tomes and staves, so he>>Gordon through all the game.

Marik gets 3 magic while Gordon gets 2 strength while having reliably higher strength throughout the game while also having a stronger weapon. Sure, you might not count it for much, but it must be noted that bows are generally stronger than their magic equivalents while also being a lot less expensive.

Strongest weapon is no contest, either. The strongest weapon Marik has is Bolganone at 16 might, while Gordon's is the Partia at 20 might. But on top of that, the Bolganone is a monster at 15 weight... that pretty much assures that even Marik won't double. The Partia is only 7. Excalibur or Starlight are decent alternatives, but they only have 12 might. Partia also doubles EXP gain, which is good because its unlikely Gordon will be at level 20 promoted by the end of Book 1. You can also repair the Partia if it runs out of uses, which you can't do with Excalibur or Starlight since they are counted as items and not weapons. The fact there's a lot of magic dragons running around in the final chapter doesn't help, either.

As for defense? You underestimate the difference 3-6 resistance makes. It seems low because in other FE games, your mages would rise above that in their power. But here, it makes a world of difference, especially against bosses. Why? Because Marik will barely be doing over his tome's might in damage. Doing 8 damage to an enemy isn't worth the weapon use when he's going to heal at least 3 of it the next turn.

Having 3 healers is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a very good thing since as you have said several times in this topic, in FE3 you can't dodge reliably.

You forget about the damage taken from hits. Your frontlining units are going to have pretty nice defense by the time you approach the endgame, which means that attacks aren't going to be a problem until damage starts piling up. This means healers aren't as needed as long as you keep note of everyone's damage. You might ask why indirect attacks are needed if attacks don't do that much damage, but for that we must remember that one less round of getting attacked means one more round units can do other things besides healing, but for Wendell, that just means he can't do much more than stand there since he won't be too effective in combat and lacks a personal weapon for when he needs more power.

-Earlygame, Wendel is better at combat and can heal, and is useful during both phases.

Having Wendell fight is a waste of experience because he's a prepromote with rather poor growths and poor averages. He makes a good, durable healer early on, but you're better leaving the combat to units who will actually be a lot more useful later on.

-Few characters can heal. Most of the cast can fight (and better than Gordon). This makes Wendel more valuable and unique.

Most can fight better than Gordon? How many can fight as well as he can at a range? Yes, there's obvious ones like Kashim, and while Maric is arguable I'll give you him, but aside from that you'd have to stick a Javelin on others, which is arguably one of the worst weapons in the game because it is garunteed to drop the unit's AS to nothing due to its insane 20 weight. Surely even you can agree that using Gordon for ranged combat is better than using a unit with a javelin.

And don't say "but he can't counter at close-range while the javelin-user can". The point of attacking an enemy from a distance is to prevent having to counterattack in the first place.

-Lategame, both are near to useless enemy phase. This means that Gordon has to be tons better than Wendel during your phase so he can match the clear superiority Wendel had during the first half of the game. Of course, in a healer vs archer debaet, that never happens.

Unless you're obsessive-compulsive about healing each of the attacks that do 2-5 damage to your frontline units (which wastes staff uses... something you don't want to do since even the simple Heal/Live staff only has 20 uses), you're not going to be healing every single turn.

-Being a healer means an own experience poll, basically, since there is always enough to heal. Being a combat unit means sharing experience with the other combat units.

Except we can both agree Wendell fails at combat once you get past the halfway point.

-As a minor point, Wendel doesn't need a promo item.

Irrelevant. You get two Orion's Arrows and no ranking system exists.

gg

Don't party just yet!

[Lord Kratos]

-Not everyone in your army is going to be counterattacking on the enemy phase, anyways. If he replaces someone that wouldn't have been attacked anyways, it doesn't matter whether he can counterattack or not.
-They can be used to lure in an enemy (and don't say "disarm Doga", because then you'll have to waste someone's turn to give him his weapons back)
-Front and backlines exist. They'll be in your backline most of the time, where units like them and your healers should not be getting attacked in the first place.

1.-Ridiculous claim. How can you know if a unit will not attack during enemy phase? The only possible case I can see is a healer, but lol at an archer replacing a healer.
2.-Nah, I won't say "disarm Doga". I'll rather ask, why do you want to lure an enemy and do no damage?
3.-If he's not getting attacked then he is useless during the enemy phase. As simple as that. Thanks for helping my argument.

Do you frontline with Marik or something? I'm pretty sure mercenaries and cavvys are much more suited to that job... Seriously though, mages have low HP and low defenses, so they are also going to be in your backline. Especially since they can't get enough dodge to save themselves like in other FEs.

Earlygame, both Gordon and Maric have the same defenses (Maric has 2 more HP, Gordon 2 more DEF). In your previous point, you said Gordon can lure an enemy. If they have the same durability, logically, it follows that Maric can as well, except he actually deals damage.

For later in the game, I'll let growths speak for themselves...
Gordon... 40% HP, 10% DEF
Maric..... 80% HP, 20 % DEF

With that great HP, Maric can easily handle 2-4 enemies in one enemy phase. Also, he's one of the few people in the game that can frontline against magic users.

Why is this a major issue for him, but not for units like Kain, Abel, or Doga? None of them can double at the start, either. That also helps Gordon train, because they'll attack each enemy once, then Gordon can clean up. You get more EXP for killing than attacking, so sticking to that plan makes Gordon easier to train without harming your strategy since he then moves up with the entire group.

Kain and Abel have good speed growths. They start doubling much faster than Gordon. They also get experience faster because of high mobility + being useful at both phases. And if they dismount, they and can double and still outclass Gordon in movement. Come on, don't make your case even harder by comparing Gordon to godly units.

Doga doesn't care much about doubling. He can just sit and eat a lot of attacks and never die. He levels fine.

About the EXP thing; what if I use Gordon to weaken and Kain/Abel/whatever to kill? This way, the godly units get the most experience and Gordon can be benched when his sux is more notorious. Seems like a better plan to me.

Then screw using archers AND mages because Mercenaries, Cavaliers, and Marth have more movement than both. Ignore that you're not going to be using up everyone's max amount of movement each turn.

Oh yeah, and you ignore that Gordon has 7 movement after promotion. We all agree Gordon is going to promote early, at which point he'll fix whatever problems may have existed before (as well as go further than a good number of your units).

No, you don't use max movement always. You do it sometimes, tough, and that's when it hurts Gordon.

With 7 attack power, Marik is not killing anything even though he doubles since enemies have more than 14 HP. He needs enemies to be softened up just like Gordon.

Point is that Maric wins offense, which is what I wanted to prove. As a sidenote he can soften enemies for everyone else better than Gordon. He gets two attacks so his chance of landing a critical is higher than Gordon's. Or he can kill with his personal weapon. It's a win for Maric, either way.

Marik gets 3 magic while Gordon gets 2 strength while having reliably higher strength throughout the game while also having a stronger weapon. Sure, you might not count it for much, but it must be noted that bows are generally stronger than their magic equivalents while also being a lot less expensive.

Gordon 10/1. Steel bow. 18 Atk
Maric 10/1. Thoron....  18 Atk 

And Maric attacks RES, and has speed. Plus he'll get a level lead quite easily, and soon will be able to use Volcanon and still double, since his speed growth is quite good.

Partia conceded.

You forget about the damage taken from hits. Your frontlining units are going to have pretty nice defense by the time you approach the endgame, which means that attacks aren't going to be a problem until damage starts piling up. This means healers aren't as needed as long as you keep note of everyone's damage. You might ask why indirect attacks are needed if attacks don't do that much damage, but for that we must remember that one less round of getting attacked means one more round units can do other things besides healing, but for Wendell, that just means he can't do much more than stand there since he won't be too effective in combat and lacks a personal weapon for when he needs more power.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to prove here >_>

Enemy attackd DO matter. Lots of your units don't have as amazing defense as you say (check growths, everyone has from 10 to 30 except Barts and Maji) and even with a capped defense, some damage is still received (like from those lategame Silver lance paladins, among others). A healer is just more efficient. You are pretty much saying an unit's life is worth an extra ranged attack.

Having Wendell fight is a waste of experience because he's a prepromote with rather poor growths and poor averages. He makes a good, durable healer early on, but you're better leaving the combat to units who will actually be a lot more useful later on.

Good thing his base MAG won't let him kill anything. Perfect for weakening enemies and is your best healer earlygame? Amazing. It's like an improved version of a Jeigan archetype!

Most can fight better than Gordon? How many can fight as well as he can at a range? Yes, there's obvious ones like Kashim, and while Maric is arguable I'll give you him, but aside from that you'd have to stick a Javelin on others, which is arguably one of the worst weapons in the game because it is garunteed to drop the unit's AS to nothing due to its insane 20 weight. Surely even you can agree that using Gordon for ranged combat is better than using a unit with a javelin.

And don't say "but he can't counter at close-range while the javelin-user can". The point of attacking an enemy from a distance is to prevent having to counterattack in the first place.

You can't separate combat in melee and ranged just 'cause it makes your unit looks better. Both have the same objective: to kill the enemy, except that melee is way more efficient. With that in mind, it is obvious that pretty much everyone fights better than Gordon. (DOn't forget that Gordon also has less Atk than a lot of other units)

Unless you're obsessive-compulsive about healing each of the attacks that do 2-5 damage to your frontline units (which wastes staff uses... something you don't want to do since even the simple Heal/Live staff only has 20 uses), you're not going to be healing every single turn.

If you fight every turn, you heal every turn. Dodge is unreliable.

Except we can both agree Wendell fails at combat once you get past the halfway point.

Maybe I wasn't clear. First sentence was aimed at Wendel, second one at Gordon. Meaning that lategame, Wendel has an experience poll of his own, Gordon shares experience with other combat units, which makes Wendel less of a bother to the team. (quite the opposite, actually)

Irrelevant. You get two Orion's Arrows and no ranking system exists.

And due to no rankings you can sell the promo items you don't need and buy nice stuff. Clearly a relevant advantage for Wendel.

[Ayanami]

With that great HP, Maric can easily handle 2-4 enemies in one enemy phase. Also, he's one of the few people in the game that can frontline against magic users.

But he still shouldn't be brought in the fronlines as he still will easily get owned against any melee unit.

Doga doesn't care much about doubling. He can just sit and eat a lot of attacks and never die. He levels fine.

Without a Speed Ring, you really cannot use him in the frontlines behind Chapter 8 as the enemies will likely double him.

About the EXP thing; what if I use Gordon to weaken and Kain/Abel/whatever to kill? This way, the godly units get the most experience and Gordon can be benched when his sux is more notorious. Seems like a better plan to me.

How can Gordon possibly be phail when Kashim is prone to getting critted as all hunters are and that Thomas isn't even worth mentioning. Gordon will get more mobility than the other two bow units and that he is quite an important unit to take down the Dragon Knights as they are tough to take down without him. Don't say Dragon Killers as you cannot buy them until Chapter 17. So....

Thomas=Phail
Kashim=Phail
Gordon=W1n.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to prove here >_>

Enemy attackd DO matter. Lots of your units don't have as amazing defense as you say (check growths, everyone has from 10 to 30 except Barts and Maji) and even with a capped defense, some damage is still received (like from those lategame Silver lance paladins, among others). A healer is just more efficient. You are pretty much saying an unit's life is worth an extra ranged attack.

Not only that, but they also have really high speed and skill which without supports, they will easily get owned by Akaneia's elite co.

You can't separate combat in melee and ranged just 'cause it makes your unit looks better. Both have the same objective: to kill the enemy, except that melee is way more efficient. With that in mind, it is obvious that pretty much everyone fights better than Gordon. (DOn't forget that Gordon also has less Atk than a lot of other units)

Sure Gordon will likely get attk screwed with only a meagar 30% growth, but he will excel at alot more Speed and Weapon Skill.

If you fight every turn, you heal every turn. Dodge is unreliable.

In this game, yes, as the enemies will have higher accuracy, even with capped speed and luck they will still get around a 20-30% chance at getting hit.

And due to no rankings you can sell the promo items you don't need and buy nice stuff. Clearly a relevant advantage for Wendel.

Well that is your choice, but i would sell stat up items that you do not need, preferably Secret Books as most likely everyone will have great skill stats!

[Neofox]

1.-Ridiculous claim. How can you know if a unit will not attack during enemy phase? The only possible case I can see is a healer, but lol at an archer replacing a healer.

I didn't say a healer. During the enemy phase, say you have a line of 5 units. Enemies are generally only going to be hitting 3 of those unless there's a ton coming at you, but if that's the case you're going to want to set up a defense in as narrow an area you can find to avoid getting your frontliners hit too many times.

2.-Nah, I won't say "disarm Doga". I'll rather ask, why do you want to lure an enemy and do no damage?

If you can't think of a reason why you'd want to lure in an enemy without killing them, perhaps  

3.-If he's not getting attacked then he is useless during the enemy phase. As simple as that. Thanks for helping my argument.

Mages fight from the backlines. They are useless during the enemy phase.

Oh, and I forgot the obvious "they can counter at a range" argument, and before you say that never happens or that you have to completely alter your tactics, keep in mind that you're almost never fighting in a narrow hallway or something that prevents you from having your archer take on ranged units while melee units do other things.

Earlygame, both Gordon and Maric have the same defenses (Maric has 2 more HP, Gordon 2 more DEF). In your previous point, you said Gordon can lure an enemy. If they have the same durability, logically, it follows that Maric can as well, except he actually deals damage.

And runs a risk of killing the enemy if he criticals, especially if he has Excalibur.

2 more HP is only the same as 2 more defense in the situation of one-hit kills.

With that great HP, Maric can easily handle 2-4 enemies in one enemy phase. Also, he's one of the few people in the game that can frontline against magic users.

Marik has the same 3% MDef growth everyone else has. Besides, promoted magic users have ~14 MDef while having like... 6 defense. You want to fight them with physical weapons, because Marik won't be doing much damage to them unless he uses up a valuable tome.

About the EXP thing; what if I use Gordon to weaken and Kain/Abel/whatever to kill? This way, the godly units get the most experience and Gordon can be benched when his sux is more notorious. Seems like a better plan to me.

The best units can survive on getting less EXP for a while, and Gordon could use the help since he is a bit of a late bloomer.

No, you don't use max movement always. You do it sometimes, tough, and that's when it hurts Gordon.

Where will this happen? Besides, move Kain, Abel, and Marth their full movement and Doga gets left behind. You could just say to give him the boots, but they come about halfway through the game, the point where Gordon is pretty much ready to promote.

Point is that Maric wins offense, which is what I wanted to prove.

What difference does it make if he still needs handholding?

As a sidenote he can soften enemies for everyone else better than Gordon.

He will do "meh" damage with Fire, and Blizzard you don't want to use up too much since you can't get a new tome of it for a while.

He gets two attacks so his chance of landing a critical is higher than Gordon's. Or he can kill with his personal weapon. It's a win for Maric, either way.

Landing a critical means the enemy will most likely die and the unit Marik is softening it up for can't get the EXP. His personal weapon isn't worth using on random enemies, especially since you can't repair it.

Gordon 10/1. Steel bow. 18 Atk
Maric 10/1. Thoron....  18 Atk  

This is a completely unfair comparison. Steel bows have 9 might while Thoron has 12, not to mention Thoron is much rarer and costs helluva lot more once it finally becomes available in shops.

And Maric attacks RES, and has speed.

Gordon has speed at this point, too. Hitting defense is negated by the fact he's much stronger.

Plus he'll get a level lead quite easily, and soon will be able to use Volcanon and still double, since his speed growth is quite good.

Perhaps you just don't realize how bad 15 weight is... According to your example, Maric will have about 12 or 13 speed. He needs 4 levels on average before he can break even with Bolganone, and once he does he needs an average of 6 more in order to have enough speed to double enemies with 0 speed, and you won't be seeing any of those by the time that happens.

Enemy attackd DO matter. Lots of your units don't have as amazing defense as you say (check growths, everyone has from 10 to 30 except Barts and Maji) and even with a capped defense, some damage is still received (like from those lategame Silver lance paladins, among others). A healer is just more efficient. You are pretty much saying an unit's life is worth an extra ranged attack.

Kill the enemy from afar and they can't attack you up-close. And I'm talking about the end of the game here, and since enemies aren't too impressive in this game, your units are still going to be able to take a good amount of hits before needing to be healed.

Or maybe I'm just good enough to not have ever needed more than one or two healers when I play FE3, but I severely doubt I'm that skilled of a tactician...

You can't separate combat in melee and ranged just 'cause it makes your unit looks better. Both have the same objective: to kill the enemy, except that melee is way more efficient. With that in mind, it is obvious that pretty much everyone fights better than Gordon. (DOn't forget that Gordon also has less Atk than a lot of other units)

As I said: the point of killing an enemy from afar is to be sure that they won't counterattack you in the first place. Not every unit can do that, and since doing so is a big help in this game, it's a notable advantage for Gordon.

"Pretty much everyone fights better than Gordon"? That's a hefty exaggeration... What about Est? Toms? Maria? Villuck? Matisse? Ricardo? Alan? Midea? Boa? What about others in his general job like Thomas? Ulf? Zaggaro? You're probably going to say I'm stretching it by naming clearly bad units, but FE3 has a ton of them. Saying Gordon is among the worst is rediculous.

If you fight every turn, you heal every turn. Dodge is unreliable.

A unit has 35 HP and takes 5 damage from an enemy. They'd need to get attacked 6 more times before they die, which means unless they keep getting attacked that turn, they can last a bit without that 5 HP.

Maybe I wasn't clear. First sentence was aimed at Wendel, second one at Gordon. Meaning that lategame, Wendel has an experience poll of his own, Gordon shares experience with other combat units, which makes Wendel less of a bother to the team. (quite the opposite, actually)

By the time Wendell's usefulness in combat dries up, Gordon will be a contributing member of the team.

And due to no rankings you can sell the promo items you don't need and buy nice stuff. Clearly a relevant advantage for Wendel.

What do you need to buy that requires selling things like that? Worthwhile units do not need stat boosters (and if you really don't think this is the case, I'm pretty sure you get at least two of each booster as a freebie by the end), and weapon supplies should be just fine. If you really need money, sell the manuals/scrolls. Nobody useful has issues with weapon level.

[Ayanami]

And runs a risk of killing the enemy if he criticals, especially if he has Excalibur.

2 more HP is only the same as 2 more defense in the situation of one-hit kills.

That is why that it is recommendible that he should use Fire Tomes.

Marik has the same 3% MDef growth everyone else has. Besides, promoted magic users have ~14 MDef while having like... 6 defense. You want to fight them with physical weapons, because Marik won't be doing much damage to them unless he uses up a valuable tome.

Sure Magic users gets upon average of 14 Mag Def due to their promotional bonus gains and that without tomes such as Thunder, he won't be dishing it out very well.

He will do "meh" damage with Fire, and Blizzard you don't want to use up too much since you can't get a new tome of it for a while.

For the first seven Chapters you will want to use Gordon to weaken the enemies, that is if you want the other units to get the EXP.

Landing a critical means the enemy will most likely die and the unit Marik is softening it up for can't get the EXP. His personal weapon isn't worth using on random enemies, especially since you can't repair it.

As it will also waste Repair Staff uses which is better saved for the Partia,Gladius,and the Miracle weapons which raises a units EXP twice as much than normal.

This is a completely unfair comparison. Steel bows have 9 might while Thoron has 12, not to mention Thoron is much rarer and costs helluva lot more once it finally becomes available in shops.

Not to mention that the Steel Bow has 4 wieght and that Torron only has three, and Torron should not be used heavily at all since you cannot buy them.

Or maybe I'm just good enough to not have ever needed more than one or two healers when I play FE3, but I severely doubt I'm that skilled of a tactician...

Not if you have the Libro/Reserve Staves you don't.

A unit has 35 HP and takes 5 damage from an enemy. They'd need to get attacked 6 more times before they die, which means unless they keep getting attacked that turn, they can last a bit without that 5 HP.

Sure in any terran increasing enviroment.

Nobody useful has issues with weapon level.

Neither with Skill.

[Lord Kratos]

I didn't say a healer. During the enemy phase, say you have a line of 5 units. Enemies are generally only going to be hitting 3 of those unless there's a ton coming at you, but if that's the case you're going to want to set up a defense in as narrow an area you can find to avoid getting your frontliners hit too many times.

Why not distribute all enemy attacks among your 5 units so you minimize damage and optimize experience distribution?

The game isn't as predictable as that, anyway. You can't think, "Hmm, X unit will never be attacked so let's use an archer."

If you can't think of a reason why you'd want to lure in an enemy without killing them, perhaps 

wut?

Mages fight from the backlines. They are useless during the enemy phase.

Oh, and I forgot the obvious "they can counter at a range" argument, and before you say that never happens or that you have to completely alter your tactics, keep in mind that you're almost never fighting in a narrow hallway or something that prevents you from having your archer take on ranged units while melee units do other things.

Mages are more versatile. Particularly, Wendel during the first half of the game, Maric during the second half. Archers require some more work, while you worry less about a mage's positioning because it will always be able to attack

And runs a risk of killing the enemy if he criticals, especially if he has Excalibur.

2 more HP is only the same as 2 more defense in the situation of one-hit kills.

Errr... killing an enemy is a good thing, you know.

The defense HP.thing is basically the same when the values are so low. Example, a social knight with 12 attack.

Against Gordon (18 HP, 6 DEF) - 6 damage, kills in 3 rounds
Against Maric (20 HP, 4 DEF)   - 8 damage, kills in 3 rounds

Marik has the same 3% MDef growth everyone else has. Besides, promoted magic users have ~14 MDef while having like... 6 defense. You want to fight them with physical weapons, because Marik won't be doing much damage to them unless he uses up a valuable tome.

Yes but Maric has a higher base and promo gain. His RES is on par with Peggies and Paladins, so he can lure a group of archers while receiving little damage, so in your turn, your other units kill them. Earlygame, when almost everyone has 0 RES, it makes a nice difference between him and an archer

The best units can survive on getting less EXP for a while, and Gordon could use the help since he is a bit of a late bloomer.

Nonsense. Gordon is never above average. It is better to focus on the good units and bench Gordon after a while.

He will do "meh" damage with Fire, and Blizzard you don't want to use up too much since you can't get a new tome of it for a while.

Irrelevant. Fire has only 1 less Mt than Blizza.

Where will this happen? Besides, move Kain, Abel, and Marth their full movement and Doga gets left behind. You could just say to give him the boots, but they come about halfway through the game, the point where Gordon is pretty much ready to promote.

Happens in wide maps. The chapter where Navarre and Rena join comes to mind.

Or, don't use the max movement, but if units use only 1 more move than Gordon, he'll eventually be left behind.

What difference does it make if he still needs handholding?

It matters cause nobody can't one-round earlygame (unless Abel gained 2 speed or ppl like Oguma and Sheeda land a critical). However, most units can kill in two rounds. The only exceptions that come to mind are Gordon and Julian. So it makes a difference

This is a completely unfair comparison. Steel bows have 9 might while Thoron has 12, not to mention Thoron is much rarer and costs helluva lot more once it finally becomes available in shops.

Use Elfire then. MAric loses by 3 in raw attack but makes up with the Def-Res gap. It's a tie or win situation for him. It doesn't rly matter

Kill the enemy from afar and they can't attack you up-close. And I'm talking about the end of the game here, and since enemies aren't too impressive in this game, your units are still going to be able to take a good amount of hits before needing to be healed.

I don't recall enemies being that bad (Wyverns, Paladins, General, Heroes, SIlver bow snipers). Healing is obviously more valuable

every unit can do that, and since doing so is a big help in this game, it's a notable advantage for Gordon.

"Pretty much everyone fights better than Gordon"? That's a hefty exaggeration... What about Est? Toms? Maria? Villuck? Matisse? Ricardo? Alan? Midea? Boa? What about others in his general job like Thomas? Ulf? Zaggaro? You're probably going to say I'm stretching it by naming clearly bad units, but FE3 has a ton of them. Saying Gordon is among the worst is rediculous.

Gordon doesn't have that advantage compared to mages (which is where this debaet comes from).

Anyway, with that "notable advantage" of yours a much more notable disadvantage comes with the archer class: No melee combat.

I could name every unit that fights better than Gordon, but that would be tl;dr. I'll just say that in a tier list I'd put him in low tier.

A unit has 35 HP and takes 5 damage from an enemy. They'd need to get attacked 6 more times before they die, which means unless they keep getting attacked that turn, they can last a bit without that 5 HP.

Pulling numbers out of nowhere doesn't help you. What if I say that 35 HP unit receives 13 damage per attack? Then healing would look more valuable. Of course, neither of us have a point 'cause both os us pulled numbers out of our asses.

By the time Wendell's usefulness in combat dries up, Gordon will be a contributing member of the team.

You answered with an irrelevancy...again. I was talking about Wendel not stealing experience from anyone else, unlike Gordon.

What do you need to buy that requires selling things like that? Worthwhile units do not need stat boosters (and if you really don't think this is the case, I'm pretty sure you get at least two of each booster as a freebie by the end), and weapon supplies should be just fine. If you really need money, sell the manuals/scrolls. Nobody useful has issues with weapon level.

I could sell the Orion arrow and buy a Knight Crest with the silver card to use another paladin or a Elysian whip to promote another one of my peggies. Or an angelic robe for ppl like Marth, Rena, Linda and more importantly, Jeigan instead of using a mediocre archer.

OK, I exposed my point, and I feel I can bring no new points to this. It's getting kinda boring and repetitive, plus it's obvious mages are better, don't you think?

[Neofox]

Why not distribute all enemy attacks among your 5 units so you minimize damage and optimize experience distribution?

But there aren't always enough enemies to do that. If there's 5 units and 3 enemies within range, only 3 can get attacked. There's generally only a few enemies or a lot, and if there's a lot you're going to want to funnel them through a small opening to minimize attacks on your frontliners so that you can handle them easier. Archers are useful in situations like that as well, since they can fire from behind your frontlines and not get attacked unless at a range, where they can return fire.

The game isn't as predictable as that, anyway. You can't think, "Hmm, X unit will never be attacked so let's use an archer."

Players like us know where all enemy units are on any given map and where more will spawn from as well as when. How is it not predictable when enemy unit and placement is constant?

wut?

I forgot to add whatever the "..." is called at the end, but my point is that luring in enemies without killing them is useful for reasons that have been brought up before. If you really can't think of a reason for why it'd be useful, I don't know what to say.

Mages are more versatile. Particularly, Wendel during the first half of the game, Maric during the second half. Archers require some more work, while you worry less about a mage's positioning because it will always be able to attack

Wendel steals EXP if he fights at the start of the game. And being able to counterattack means nothing if they aren't supposed to be getting attacked in the backlines. A mage shouldn't be getting attacked either since they can't take too many hits, so you might as well treat them like they can't counterattack.

Errr... killing an enemy is a good thing, you know.

Your argument before was that Marik can soften up enemies to make them easier to kill. If he himself kills them, that's not softening them up.

Yes but Maric has a higher base and promo gain. His RES is on par with Peggies and Paladins, so he can lure a group of archers while receiving little damage, so in your turn, your other units kill them. Earlygame, when almost everyone has 0 RES, it makes a nice difference between him and an archer

Except the archer will actually damage the mage. With such high resistance, Maric needs his strongest tomes to be able to do any damage to them, which is a waste of weapon uses. His defenses aren't all that hot either, so luring in archers isn't really a good idea for him.

Nonsense. Gordon is never above average. It is better to focus on the good units and bench Gordon after a while.

Funny, because this is usually what I say about Wendell... Except I don't think he's even average by the endgame.

Happens in wide maps. The chapter where Navarre and Rena join comes to mind.

Again: this still results in Doga getting left behind, not just Gordon.

Or, don't use the max movement, but if units use only 1 more move than Gordon, he'll eventually be left behind.

Then it's a good thing Gordon moves faster than Doga, and we know you won't leave him behind...

It matters cause nobody can't one-round earlygame (unless Abel gained 2 speed or ppl like Oguma and Sheeda land a critical). However, most units can kill in two rounds.

Eh? Nobody can't one-round early game... that means that everyone does, but then you go and say most can kill in two rounds? Regardless, I'm pretty sure Gordon can kill in two rounds just like anyone else, although it probably doesn't matter since he's mostly going to be dealing with cleanup duty to train.

Use Elfire then. MAric loses by 3 in raw attack but makes up with the Def-Res gap. It's a tie or win situation for him. It doesn't rly matter

Elfire still has 10 less uses and is much more expensive than a steel bow.

I don't recall enemies being that bad (Wyverns, Paladins, General, Heroes, SIlver bow snipers). Healing is obviously more valuable

Those enemies are pretty rare until the final chapter. In fact, the most common ones in the chapters prior are dragons, dracoknights, and mages. Latter can be counterattacked by archers at a range, middle one is weak to them, and the former gives everyone problems.

Anyway, with that "notable advantage" of yours a much more notable disadvantage comes with the archer class: No melee combat.

But if it never comes into play very much due to always being in the backlines, it doesn't matter.

I could name every unit that fights better than Gordon, but that would be tl;dr. I'll just say that in a tier list I'd put him in low tier.

My hatred for tiers in a game like this aside, does this mean the 55% of units in FE3 that are clearly not worth using are in the "sh*t tier", or do you really believe that all those units I listed are better than Gordon?

You answered with an irrelevancy...again. I was talking about Wendel not stealing experience from anyone else, unlike Gordon.

I've never understood this argument you love to use... How is a unit stealing experience if you intend to use them long-term and no other units need it more? If anyone steals EXP when fighting, it's Wendell since when he first comes he's prepromoted while nobody else is even close. Just because you don't like a unit doesn't mean they're stealing EXP from everyone else.

I could sell the Orion arrow and buy a Knight Crest with the silver card to use another paladin or a Elysian whip to promote another one of my peggies. Or an angelic robe for ppl like Marth, Rena, Linda and more importantly, Jeigan instead of using a mediocre archer.

You don't want to promote pegasus units because they lose their Res in doing so. Marik >>>> Linda because you have him for so much longer. Rena shouldn't be seeing combat. Marth averages around 36 HP, which is just fine in this game.

OK, I exposed my point, and I feel I can bring no new points to this. It's getting kinda boring and repetitive, plus it's obvious mages are better, don't you think?

At most, you've proven Marik is better than Gordon.

[Lord Kratos]

Eh? Nobody can't one-round early game... that means that everyone does, but then you go and say most can kill in two rounds? Regardless, I'm pretty sure Gordon can kill in two rounds just like anyone else, although it probably doesn't matter since he's mostly going to be dealing with cleanup duty to train.

oops. What I wanted to say is "Nobody can one-round early game". And since I bothered to post, I'll say that Gordon takes 4 rounds to kill a base social knight (18 HP, 6 DEF).

And another point 'cause you missed it for the third time:

I've never understood this argument you love to use... How is a unit stealing experience if you intend to use them long-term and no other units need it more? If anyone steals EXP when fighting, it's Wendell since when he first comes he's prepromoted while nobody else is even close. Just because you don't like a unit doesn't mean they're stealing EXP from everyone else.

I was talking about Wendel healing, not fighting. Lategame, when he heals, he takes no experience from anyone, because your other healers already acted for that turn, since by that point they get priority over Wendel.

Gordon, (or any other fighter for that matter) when kills an enemy and gets experience that could have been used by a better unit. Seeing it at long term, Gordon steals like 20-25 levels (or whatever number of level ups he gets) from the entire party.

I pretty much disagree with everything else you said, but I don't feel like repeating myself over and over. I just can't believe you truly think archers are better than mages in FE3. Or maybe you realize mages are better but have an urge to debaet >_>

[Neofox]

I was talking about Wendel healing, not fighting. Lategame, when he heals, he takes no experience from anyone, because your other healers already acted for that turn, since by that point they get priority over Wendel.

By that time, Marik will be promoted and outperforming Wendell in everything. As you said, he has healing utility at that point, and although I admit this is personal experience talking, I never found myself ever needing more than him and Rena when playing FE3.

Gordon, (or any other fighter for that matter) when kills an enemy and gets experience that could have been used by a better unit. Seeing it at long term, Gordon steals like 20-25 levels (or whatever number of level ups he gets) from the entire party.

A unit steals experience when they're at a significantly higher level than the rest of the party when they come, as any EXP they gain from killing enemies will be in the single-digits or so while everyone else would have gained ~30 by killing them. Gordon comes in at the same level as everyone else in chapter one, so he cannot do that. This is compounded by the fact that units gain the same EXP in FE3, which means that even promoted units gain the same amount of EXP as everyone else.

A unit is not stealing experience just because their quota could be given to someone else. By that logic, why use Kain or Abel when Hardain and Roshe are arguably better? Why bother with Marik when Linda could use his EXP? If you're going to use a unit, you are going to train them. If they come at a reasonable level and you intend to use them in your army, any EXP they gain is their fair share of it. Because of all this, I can confidently say that your claim has no merit in this situation.

I pretty much disagree with everything else you said, but I don't feel like repeating myself over and over. I just can't believe you truly think archers are better than mages in FE3. Or maybe you realize mages are better but have an urge to debaet >_>

Technically, this was a Gordon vs the mages debate. Had it been archers vs mages, Kashim would have also been considered, which would have changed everything for obvious reason.

[Ayanami]

Players like us know where all enemy units are on any given map and where more will spawn from as well as when. How is it not predictable when enemy unit and placement is constant?

Even if some players don't know, there is always Serenes Forest or a FAQ to give out the details of the reinforcements.

Wendel steals EXP if he fights at the start of the game.

EXP cannot possibly be stolen in this game as EXP gaining is all the same on every unit no matter the level, but the only thing that Wendel should not be used for the start of the game is that the enemies are really weak at that point that is needed for your lower EXP units to tread.

I've never understood this argument you love to use... How is a unit stealing experience if you intend to use them long-term and no other units need it more? If anyone steals EXP when fighting, it's Wendell since when he first comes he's prepromoted while nobody else is even close. Just because you don't like a unit doesn't mean they're stealing EXP from everyone else.

Yes, using Wendel will waste EXP as once maric/Linda promotes, he will start to become useless and that you will bench him anyway, if I were to use Wendel it would be for healing duties and that he can take more abuse than your clerics.

You don't want to promote pegasus units because they lose their Res in doing so. Marik >>>> Linda because you have him for so much longer. Rena shouldn't be seeing combat. Marth averages around 36 HP, which is just fine in this game.

Um your forgetting one thing and that is towards the end of the game they will not be mounted and that while they are dismounted, they will lose their 6 Res.

At most, you've proven Marik is better than Gordon.

So Maric is better than Gordon in battle, but lets not forget that he will not level up as fast as Gordon as Gordon will level twice as fast with the Partia.