Politeness, opinions of others, and why you shouldn't take TEH INTERWEBZ 2serius

[quanta]

First of all, I have permission for this topic from Sword_Saint.

Ok, so this might disappear into a hellish firestorm by reply #4 or something but let's try to do this right guys. That means I'll turn up my own internal censor some, and it might be helpful if everyone took a long breath before responding. I'm going to name a few names here as an example and because I feel public discussion would be helpful (they aren't the only ones who sometimes behave this way though), and I think they both are good members (although some would disagree) and have been or are staff. Here goes...

I've noticed a certain level of oversensitivity around the boards. Sometimes people get overtly offended much more rapidly than makes any sense, whether at comments directed at them, at others, or god knows what. This leads to a rather rapid spiraling out of control of one side comment on a topic into a full blown half-page argument totally unrelated to the topic that contributes to nothing, is pointless, and misses the forest for the trees.

Let's go through how this happens, step-by-step

First a side comment- that is arguably on topic or close enough and is harmless assholery at worst, (most people just ignored it and moved on; they didn't take it too personally or read into it too much)- appears like a tiny pile of  kindling, it's not really that important or distracting on its own.

http://forums.grandbell.net/index.php/topic,2064.msg31008.html#msg31008

Then things start to get a bit personal and obviously way off topic (you can practically see the match hitting the kindling)...

http://forums.grandbell.net/index.php/topic,2064.msg31083.html#msg31083

You guys can read the rest of the topic to see where stuff goes (it's not that important to my point), but I'm just going to jump to the inevitable part where Sword_Saint tells people to get back on topic

http://forums.grandbell.net/index.php/topic,2064.msg31447.html#msg31447

Now this is NOT to excuse the fact that sometimes people are rude (Blacky Wacky isn't exactly known for his manners), but you know what is the best way to deal with it? Shake it off, and if you really don't care then don't dignify said person with a reply. It's not like everyone on the whole board is suddenly going to try to tear you a new asshole because someone behaved a bit like one. Honestly, in this specific case (which is not my main point), I think Blacky Wacky's original post was no more off topic or offensive than Bus's first response to Neofox (http://forums.grandbell.net/index.php/topic,2064.msg30996.html#msg30996) was in the topic (other times Blacky Wacky is unnecessarily a prick over things).

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there is no inherent right for anyone's opinion to be respected in the sense that people won't disagree and argue with it, and thinking this can lead to more problems than being a rude jackass in the first place. People are free to say what they want on said topic or tangent to said topic limited by ToS, FESS rules, and staff of course. One of the great things about these forums is that staff have been pretty lenient, but turning a disagreement into a personal confrontation isn't constructive and is a recipe for us losing our current freedom to say so much, while still maintaining a environment which encourages behavior better than that at say gamefaqs.

Finally, I'd like to issue a challenge to everyone here. Let's see if everyone here can go a month without Sword_Saint having to step into a thread and forcefully redirect everyone back on topic. It's getting old, it's not fun for him, it's not conducive to discussion (the original discussion is sometimes dead by then), and it's not like nobody can see what's going to happen a page beforehand when things start to get out of hand.

[i am a raging faggot who loves big dicks]

I don't have much to add here, except that I agree entirely with what quanta said (including, and perhaps especially, the bits about me).

That said--two things. And I swear to god, Bus, if you get all defensive I am going to find some way to ensure that you have a chronic case of the piss shivers for the rest of your life, even if I have to bribe Hinata. (Chocolate? Does chocolate work? Help me out here.)

-If it was anyone other than me, a tongue-in-cheek side comment (hint: it was halfway a joke to begin with, did you not notice the grue comment?) would have gone unnoticed. Instead, OMG NUCLEAR WAR. If I was trolling, as is so often alleged (another hint: I'm not), it seems like your reaction is exactly what I'd want (third hint: it's not, as my reply quite clearly states).

-It would do everyone on this board a huge favor if you responded to what is actually said, rather than what you think is said. This habit of yours is certainly not restricted to my posts; I can think, just offhand, of posts by both Shaya and Judas/KMFDM/whatever-rooster-related-nickname-he's-using-this-week that have gotten the same treatment. You've acknowledged that you do this in the past, but your treatment of such hasn't changed. You have adopted an apparently unwavering dedication to assuming malice where there is none, and it's hurting your board much more than anything I could ever do. I'm not the only one to say that, either.

-Ed

[Crystal Shards]

As much as I respect you for making this topic, quanta, I seriously doubt this topic is going to have an effect on anyone. I've seen too many of these (read: FEP, for example) and they've never, ever, worked.

~Crystal

[Sword Saint]

Actually, I don't entirely agree: Blacky Wacky's post was off-topic and contributed nothing to the thread.  I didn't care for Bus's, either, in the same vein.  Further, as I covered in Announcements, things HAVE gotten a bit hostile around here.  At the same time, I don't care for whine-related posts.  If you feel someone's rabble-rousing, we have a report button.  I have to echo quanta in that sometimes it's best to just chill out.

It was the half-page epics that had nothing to do with the topic (and that I should have cut off earlier) that were the real problem, more than the initial dickery present.

[Willfor]

I think we disagree on the fundamental issue of what constitutes productive (or entertaining non-productive) discussion, and thus will not be able to reach mutually compatable points on this issue in any way. I have to apoligise that we do not see eye to eye on this because it seems a shame that no halfway point can be reached, but you are simply too far across the gap of perception that I am afraid I would have to go to places I would rather not go to meet you in the middle on this particular issue which you have taken great lengths to write. It's not to say that you are wrong, I simply may not be able to see things from your perspective.

This is, of course, all said in the most hostile tone possible. If it could be read as such, that would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

[quanta]

I think we disagree on the fundamental issue of what constitutes productive (or entertaining non-productive) discussion, and thus will not be able to reach mutually compatable points on this issue in any way. I have to apoligise that we do not see eye to eye on this because it seems a shame that no halfway point can be reached, but you are simply too far across the gap of perception that I am afraid I would have to go to places I would rather not go to meet you in the middle on this particular issue which you have taken great lengths to write. It's not to say that you are wrong, I simply may not be able to see things from your perspective.

I'm not saying dickery or flaming should be allowed unchecked. I just think there is some sort of happy medium or compromise we can reach. Especially when standards obviously aren't being applied equally to all people. (which I can't imagine you actually supporting, so unless you're going to defend that part of it then I think there is some common ground to be found).

I'm not asking that you see things from my perspective, just that you perhaps consider my points.

This is, of course, all said in the most hostile tone possible. If it could be read as such, that would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

Honestly, I'm just confused by this. You're normally more the straight man than the joker, although I don't know you too well.

[arashisama without the decorative symbols. RANDOM ENOUGH?!]

To me, I sometimes wonder how the staff team is created from things like these. Individually, the admin's seem to be on the job, but together it's like there's too much volatility.

Still, regarding the "Interweb should not be taken too seriously" part, I agree. To a certain degree, no one knows who is on the other side of the computer, or what is going through the other's mind. But FESS always held to a higher standard than other forums which are more or less just chatrooms. It is this high expectation on top of usual volatile personalities (as well as those who simply care too little) that keeps these topics spiraling into the abyss.

If everyone could (not likely ><) just take a look at themselves, and make a little change in their posting... Volatile people, calm down a little. People who normally make very silly posts, think a little longer... Then everything would be greatly improved. Of course, there's no hope for that.

It's unlikely we're ever going to completely escape those topics.

[Willfor]

I'm not saying dickery or flaming should be allowed unchecked. I just think there is some sort of happy medium or compromise we can reach. Especially when standards obviously aren't being applied equally to all people. (which I can't imagine you actually supporting, so unless you're going to defend that part of it then I think there is some common ground to be found).

I'm not asking that you see things from my perspective, just that you perhaps consider my points.

Honestly, I'm just confused by this. You're normally more the straight man than the joker, although I don't know you too well.

I actually play both, but straight is my default.

Though because the entire point I was actually going to debate was contained within that last line of the point, I think you might want to read over it again. Bear in mind that it, like the first line of this post, works on more than one level.

[I Fell In Love With Judas, then I got Herpes]

As much as I love the whole "OMFG WE CAN CHANGE THE WORLD GEE I LOVE THE DAVE MATTHEWS BAND" outlook here, the problem isn't "Group A is being mean make them stop" or "Group B deserves it wtf!" or anything involving letter-coordinated groups and adjectives describing such.

See, stupid people are stupid. Mean people are mean. When you combine them, you get a recipe for a derailed thread. It happens from time to time. When it does, you walk in, wave your mawd dick around and tell them to stop fucking with the sandbox. Problem solved.

Unfortunately that's not the case. It's that people are taking grudges and beating them into each other over and over again. It's that people are really fucking fragile these days. It's that we jump at each other over the slightest things. We're making issues of non-issues because of some faggot's username or because what they said was something that was omg kinda mean. "Oh, gee, Blacky Wacky posted something, clearly he's not joking but trying to murder our children!" or "Oh, gee, look at that damn Superbus, he sure doesn't get it, does he? Let's go yell at the fucker! " or any sort of thing. We're rabblerousing (to borrow a term from Sword_Saint) over the most inane shit, and that results in the mean bad things we don't want people saying.

We've gotten to a point where everyone is so goddamn oversensitive that they snap the second someone says something vaguely wrong to them. It's not about members being mean, it's about members who are going home and crying later that night because omfg someone insulted me over the interwebs!!1! The internet is not serus business. Get over yourself. Don't be a stupid cockfucking moron. That said, being a dick is not cool. You're not somehow better than everyone else just because you insult someone. Therefore, don't go out of your way to be an asshole to people. Did someone say something stupid? Tell them that what they said was stupid. That's okay. What's not okay is when you somehow get this self-righteous surge of justice and somehow take offense to the fact that they said something stupid. Don't go out of your way to be mean, because, believe it or not, that is not an instant success strategy to getting friends. Don't be oversensitive, because, believe it or not, life is more important than you are.

Intelligence, security in oneself, and other such virtues are necessary. Otherwise we get three pages of butthurt "OH NO YOU DID'ANT" shitfuckery. Case in point: this thread. Oh God, Superbus and Blacky Wacky got in a fight? Quick, someone alert CNN, we're all going to die, dammit! Were they out of line? Yes. Is this grounds for anything other than a "calm down guiz" message? No.

Seriously, you know what the problem in that thread was? It wasn't the 'three page epics' going on about shit, it was that everyone had to drive by and make sure they threw their two-cents in to feel better (not necessarily in-thread, shit was everywhere). It's that everyone had to join in over stupid shit. Blacky Wacky and Superbus getting into an argument is not congruent to HOLY SHIT FESS IS AT WAR PUT YOUR COURAGE TO THE STICKING-PLATE WE'RE COUNTING ON GASTON TO LEAD THE WAAAAAYYY (inb4 "omfg i loved that movie")

Blacky Wacky said something, Superbus jumped on it, that's a misunderstanding, it happens from time to time. Was Blacky Wacky right to yell at Superbus? Maybe. Was Superbus right to Blacky Wacky? Maybe. Was everyone getting up in arms about how this was some fucking apocalypse right? No. Sword_Saint did the right thing and told people to calm down. That was where it should've ended, but nooo. Apparently it's some kind of sign of the upcoming doomsday.

The reason we have these arguments is because we're too easily hurt. We care too much about what other people say. And this thread's just perpetuating that, despite whatever its written intentions may be.

tl;dr: Everyone, calm the fuck down.

[quanta]

Though because the entire point I was actually going to debate was contained within that last line of the point, I think you might want to read over it again. Bear in mind that it, like the first line of this post, works on more than one level.

You are one confusing speaker, Willfor. I'm a literal guy; that's why I study physics man. That said, I kind of realize it's ironic that I'm so serious about wanting people take stuff less seriously.

Case in point: this thread. Oh God, Superbus and Blacky Wacky got in a fight? Quick, someone alert CNN, we're all going to die, dammit! Were they out of line? Yes. Is this grounds for anything other than a "calm down guiz" message? No.

Seriously, you know what the problem in that thread was? It wasn't the 'three page epics' going on about shit, it was that everyone had to drive by and make sure they threw their two-cents in to feel better (not necessarily in-thread, shit was everywhere). It's that everyone had to join in over stupid shit. Blacky Wacky and Superbus getting into an argument is not congruent to HOLY SHIT FESS IS AT WAR PUT YOUR COURAGE TO THE STICKING-PLATE WE'RE COUNTING ON GASTON TO LEAD THE WAAAAAYYY (inb4 "omfg i loved that movie")

Blacky Wacky said something, Superbus jumped on it, that's a misunderstanding, it happens from time to time. Was Blacky Wacky right to yell at Superbus? Maybe. Was Superbus right to Blacky Wacky? Maybe. Was everyone getting up in arms about how this was some fucking apocalypse right? No. Sword_Saint did the right thing and told people to calm down. That was where it should've ended, but nooo. Apparently it's some kind of sign of the upcoming doomsday.

The reason we have these arguments is because we're too easily hurt. We care too much about what other people say. And this thread's just perpetuating that, despite whatever its written intentions may be.

tl;dr: Everyone, calm the fuck down.

The problem is that it's becoming an annoying pattern. And it's not like we haven't had stupid shit blow up before (and take the board with it). I think it's better to try to defuse this directly rather than risk letting shit explode in our face again after an even longer wait. We've tried the "calm down" approach before, but the problem is that it's easy to ignore that.

i love the cock, I'm trying to point this out way before its doomsday. That's the point.

Also, "omfg i loved that movie".

[Willfor]

You are one confusing speaker, Willfor. I'm a literal guy; that's why I study physics man. That said, I kind of realize it's ironic that I'm so serious about wanting people take stuff less seriously.

The first post has the excuse that the satire would be ruined if I hadn't done it in that exact way. The second post has no excuse since it's supposed to be what is leading people towards understanding the first post.

However, I am one of the majority who say a joke that has to be explained isn't funny at all, so apparently I have already failed. I will now use the circular logic card to say that now that it isn't funny I shouldn't explain it since it wouldn't be worth explaining.

[dilbertschalter]

How about you just say that you'll ban/long term suspend anyone who engages in ad hominem attacks. Period. When you allow stupid personal attacks to go relatively unchecked you are just inviting idiocy to flourish and multiply; people start to think the "u fail at life, lollollol" is an acceptable replacement for an actual constructive post.

[Jeffer]

While ad hominem attacks might not be wanted, threatening with immediate punishment on the first sight of them would be ridiculous. Everyobdy gets in a argument once, it's human. Internet boards should never be about strict rules, more about laid-back freedom and fun.

That being said, some regulating is necessary. It's been going on for a long time that certain influential members would just raid a thread with their opinions while insulting everyone else. Especially since they sometimes appeared to be handing out  Terrance and Phillip lessons on how to combine cock, fuck and shit in a maximum of new, creative ways.

And I also agree with Blacky Wacky (ZOMG) that his post in the favourite games topic wasn't offending. The man can be, and has been, a much bigger douchebag. It's hypocritical to react now specifically on him when much worse was ignored in the past.

[Superbus]

As much as I respect you for making this topic, quanta, I seriously doubt this topic is going to have an effect on anyone. I've seen too many of these (read: FEP, for example) and they've never, ever, worked.

~Crystal

Strange, Crys... I'm elated he put the topic up. It's necessary, and EVERYONE can get their thoughts out. It's been time for another State of the Board topic.

EDIT: Hit "post" too quick. I'm working on my own response.

[Crystal Shards]

Strange, Crys... I'm elated he put the topic up. It's necessary, and EVERYONE can get their thoughts out. It's been time for another State of the Board topic.

Forgive my... cynicism? lack of faith? lack of enthusiasm?... but I've seen this done twelve too many times. It's never gotten anywhere before, and half the time it produces even more arguments. At best, the topic turns into, "hay guiz lets get along lololol" and then next week another huge fight erupts... At worst, this topic itself will turn into a flame war.  (At least from what I've seen.)

~Crystal

[darkchaz]

I don't get 20% of what you say, but isn't the topic about people reacting as humans when they are disagree with each other?
then, every, including myself, can say stuffs in a vindicative way, even if you don't think a single word about.
I think I can remember a lot of times when I was really mean to someone. and it was really harsh, if I can say so....

on a side note, my lack of "dirty" english words sometimes pisses me off...

[Superbus]

Now, with my points made, I'm really getting tired of using what precious little free time I get to address this crap.

Our activity has been down for awhile; our forced move from Velthomer to Grandbell because Synnie and her namehost were asleep at the switch and refused to help me in any way, shape or form really hurt us, and we've been struggling to get that back. Basically, we've had our regulars, and a few newbies here and there. Some have been pillocks, like Sothe, but most of our newbies have been pretty solid, and I'd honestly like to keep them.

That said, I have a very clear line between what's acceptable and what goes too far. I react when the line is crossed, so here's my line: I'm generally very light when it comes to expressing opinions and even doing so voraciously. I'm OK with that. It's when one starts questioning the intelligence of the other person, usually without any instigation, that's when I get antsy, because when that happens, I get loaded down with PMs, usually from two sources: "Man, that guy X yelled at was an idiot" or "Y is mean, I'm leaving forever!".

It seems like no one wants to stick around at FESS! We've been a solid community now for six years, why's everyone in such a rush to leave when they don't get their way? I used to deal with this all the time from Tiltyu, until I finally just got sick of listening to her. But both sides have respected members trying to eviscerate everything they don't like about the site, and it gets old. On both sides.

The cause celebré of one particular clique is Blacky Wacky. Now, Blacky Wacky is a great friend of mine, I respect him greatly, and he was the first person I asked to step in once Jet and Zephyr went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. But my issue with him is that he doesn't understand how his words can be taken by a large group of people, and that's their fault, in his eyes. Do I get it? Yes, of course I do. It's the others that I worry about, and as someone in my position, I can't ignore those people. So as I try to keep things civil on all fronts, Blacky Wacky will say something that he later complains is read into - what does he expect? - and depending on the situation, I have to either correct the people that rise up about it, or in the case of the thread Quanta linked, attack it because it's clearly in the wrong. If I defend Blacky Wacky, I'm a piece of shit that's only looking out for his friends, and I'm a faggot. If I attack Blacky Wacky, I'm an idiot-tolerating pussy, and also a faggot. If I tell both sides to play nice in the sandbox, they all kill each other, then call me a faggot. Either way, I like cock, apparently.

Before I advance, I'm going to explain what the difference is between Ed's post and my own. My post was largely on topic, though I stated that I disagreed with looking for flaws in favourite games; to me, it defeats the purpose of playing a favourite game, and I honestly can only think of one or two games where a flaw really presents itself, such as Suikoden V's loading times, or NHL '08's bugs. My flaw was that I underestimated how my own post would be read, and that's to my fault.

Here's the thing: We're all guilty of stepping over the line every now and then. It's really not a big deal as long as it is caught. Some (Blacky Wacky) step over more than others. I'm guilty of it myself. But this thing I'm hearing that people are afraid of telling me when I step over is horseshit. Why? Because I own the site? That's it? That's ridiculous.

That said, I've had very good members leave and cite Blacky Wacky as the #1 reason they leave. One or two, I can say they're being wimpy and leave it at that. When that becomes a chorus, I have to react. That puts me in an awful position; on the one hand, Blacky Wacky is an outstanding member who has been invaluable in times of need; banning Blacky Wacky is 100% out of the question. On the other, we're a community that requires volume. Indecision is not my forte, but this debate has caused me to be sloppy lately.

Personally, FESS gives me almost no joy nowadays. I always feel like I'm putting out fires. I don't enjoy my own site. I'm... tired of this. I want that to end.

[Celice]

It seems like no one wants to stick around at FESS! We've been a solid community now for six years, why's everyone in such a rush to leave when they don't get their way? I used to deal with this all the time from Tiltyu, until I finally just got sick of listening to her. But both sides have respected members trying to eviscerate everything they don't like about the site, and it gets old. On both sides.

Personally, FESS gives me almost no joy nowadays. I always feel like I'm putting out fires. I don't enjoy my own site. I'm... tired of this. I want that to end.

Just felt like saying:  I've been around FESS for somewhat of a long time.  It used to be fun.  Now, there's almost nothing going on outside of the idiot section and FESSChat.  Every other board is dead.  It seems like virtually no one cares for the other members, and that only the same cast that we see every week are the ones hanging out at all.  Lately, with all the bitching between parties, I'm getting rather fed up with FESS.  Hell, not even the staff seems to do anything.  Lord Glenn comes in and just fucks off every thread which breaks the Good Book of Rules, half the time not even trying to help or anything.  I haven't seen him anywhere else.  The other staff members, I rarely see either.

This place used to be a good home, if you would put it.  Personally, I think FESS has over-lived its lifespan, and now, if of any other time, would be the correct definition of elitist prickism.  It's almost as if no one even wants to come to FESS.

[Superhuman Samurai Syber-Squad]

(Good opening post, Quanta; I like it when people do the homework, though one ought to be wary of too much 'artful vagueness'.)

Forgive my... cynicism? lack of faith? lack of enthusiasm?... but I've seen this done twelve too many times.

I agree with what Crys says here, except that I will expand it to say that I have never seen it work on any Internet  forum, and, indeed, I can recall a number of instances in which such discussions marked a permanent, final decline in activity.  IMO, focusing on civility as a general issue does not address what I believe to be the core problem (Blacky Wacky and / or reactions to Blacky Wacky).

I also agree with Willfor – and semi-agree with Dilbert, odd as it is to say that – that compatible points of view may not be attainable.

'Bus, you know that I do not agree with your position.  You have, and will always have, my utmost respect, but this is one instance in which I cannot agree with you.  I implore you to take a step back and leave this one in the laps of the other staffers.  That is why you hired them.  That is why SS is root.  Let Blacky Wacky be a FESS problem instead of a 'Bus problem.  You have been forced to deal with this too many times already.

Quick semi-edit: I do not agree with Celice that FESS is on its last legs.  I once felt that way, but I would not have come back if I did not feel it could be salvaged.

[quanta]

The cause celebré of one particular clique is Blacky Wacky. Now, Blacky Wacky is a great friend of mine, I respect him greatly, and he was the first person I asked to step in once Jet and Zephyr went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. But my issue with him is that he doesn't understand how his words can be taken by a large group of people, and that's their fault, in his eyes. Do I get it? Yes, of course I do. It's the others that I worry about, and as someone in my position, I can't ignore those people. So as I try to keep things civil on all fronts, Blacky Wacky will say something that he later complains is read into - what does he expect? - and depending on the situation, I have to either correct the people that rise up about it, or in the case of the thread Quanta linked, attack it because it's clearly in the wrong. If I defend Blacky Wacky, I'm a piece of shit that's only looking out for his friends, and I'm a faggot. If I attack Blacky Wacky, I'm an idiot-tolerating pussy, and also a faggot. If I tell both sides to play nice in the sandbox, they all kill each other, then call me a faggot. Either way, I like cock, apparently.

I'm not going to lie and say Blacky Wacky always plays nice. Sometimes he does cross the line, but the cure is sometimes worse than the disease. From what I can see in that thread, nobody but you and DMA took Blacky Wacky seriously. It was what, two sentences? One of which was about Zorks, the other of which most people didn't seem to take particularly badly. This spiraled out of control to the point it nearly derailed the thread.

I obviously can't see all the PM's you get, so I can't tell whether or not you're overestimating things or completely accurate, but in previous case, I'm pretty sure you basically created a problem out of nothing (I could be wrong though).

Anyways, I think Blacky Wacky can meet you halfway here, but I think that your current approach is exactly the way for that to not happen, since I think it's not inaccurate to say that in a sense, you're holding him to a higher standard. I know that I have posts in S.D. that are probably much more offensive than said example of one of Blacky Wacky's posts.

  I implore you to take a step back and leave this one in the laps of the other staffers.  That is why you hired them.  That is why SS is root.  Let Blacky Wacky be a FESS problem instead of a 'Bus problem.  You have been forced to deal with this too many times already.

Agreed, although maybe not for the same reasons.