FE9 Tier List

[Swordsalmon]

I don't have to take forever to make him somewhat usable. I can get him there in a few chapters, without a ton of BEXP (and really, if I am going to use it on him, he's a useful unit and I'm going to give it to my useful units, not my units that I'm going to ditch once someone better comes along). And heaven forbid if he can't *kill* an armor knight--he just has to survive against them. Oscar, Ike, and Soren can finish off the armor knights while he goes and stuffs everyone else full of arrows.

Besides, you don't get another real archer (sans Oscar if you feed him too much EXP at the expense of others) until... What, Astrid? I bench her right off the bat. Talk about a chapter where I don't have time to waste on leveling up people.

Also, stop trying to make love to the stats. There's more to the game than numbers on the status screen.
Then it's a list of average favorites. Same difference. Your list does not even reflect the general concencious at all, and more importantly, it's not taking play style into account. In fact, I'm not quite sure what it's taking into account... Any list with Largo above Rolf, and where Titania and Mist are above Ike just isn't going to stand up well.
Inside jokes are only funny when there's enough people present that will actually get them.

Rofl can't be raised in the chapters. At joining, there are a ton of Armour Knights and Loldiers which Rofl can't damage and they'll kill him easily. Also, the Bandits have to be killed early or you lose the villages, so Rolf can't kill them.

No-one should be fighting in Chapter 10 anyways.

Chapter 11 has...several level 1 Fighters and Myrmidons. Too bad they have to survive the chapter. Otherwise, nothing but Armour Knights and Social Knights which destroy Rofl directly.

Chapter 12 is exclusively Ravens. Many can double and kill Rofl.

Chapter 13 has more Loldiers and Mages. Also, you have to reach the chests on the boats before the Ravens can get them, while recruting Astrid on turn 1.

Just a couple of examples. Also, Rofl is never 'useful'. His stats are horrible and is killing only a single enemy per turn. If anything, he's a huge hindrance to the team.

Having an Archer is simply a hindrance. Being unable to attack more than one enemy a turn is a huge disadvantage. The only exception is Astrid, since she can run away and gain Axes after promotion.

Uh...stats kind of makes the effectiveness of the character. Stats, supports, availablility, and usefullness make up the entirety of this list. What else would be debated? Attractiveness?

Uh...the insight of several other, excellent, debators have put their opinions in this list. The usefullness of a character can change drastically over the course of a few weeks. Besides, aren't the previous tier lists years old and thus, very outdated? Also, the general consensus does agree with Largo>Rofl and Titania>Ike.

Then I'll change it.

nah, joining more than 10 chapters earlier and great offense>>reinforce.

Plus, her reinforcements hog experience.

Supports don't fix his speed tough, and speed is necessary for a good offense, so...

Besides, Illyana is a so-so character, she's not always in play. That support only exists like half of the time.

Furthermore, if you want to efficiently use Mordecai (aka demi band, which makes him even slower btw) you deprive Muarim (the best laguz) from the demiband. Being good at the sake of making a better unit worse is not ideal.

Finally, right when he joins or when he doesn't have the demi band he is useless for at least half of the chapters (when he's untransformed)

A low movement wall isn't very useful when the best characters are mounted, and when 90% of the cast has no problems living anyway. Plus, his offense is horrible for quite some chapters and average for lategame.

Zihark would take Brom and Muarim and not Illyana. Her speed, movement and durability are not impressive.

hmm? her joining situation is almost the same as Zihark, who you put in high tier, and later on, Neph beats him.

Too bad he's made of toilet paper and Kieran will support Marcia and Oscar, who can keep up with him at the frontline. Kieran and Rhys have so different roles tha they are not gonna receive significant benefits if supported

orly? He joins one chapter after Makalov, with way better stats, and Makalov is high tier. He joins 3 chapters earlier than Tanith, who you like to put at top. When Muarim joins, he owns everyone except Titania, and later one he remains as a very strong unit. He has a good support on Zihark and Largo also wants him if he's played

Any kills the Reinforcements get added to BEXP. No problem there. Besides, clearing the chapters is more important than experience farming.

Mordecai, until around Chapter 18, is reliably doubling anyways. And once 18 comes, he'll have so much Attack that he's still dealing as much damage as most the characters who double.

Ilyana is the best Sage, though. She's doing pretty good for most the game, and all her support options want her. Especially since Ilyana can use the strongest magic with minimal/no AS loss. Also, MordecaixIlyana is really fast, and IlyanaxZihark is also fast enough for a B option. Support range is three; it's very easy to be within range of everyone she supports.

Mordecai makes more use out of the Demi Band than Muraim does, with the former's lower transform gauge. And before the Band, enemies target characters who can't counter, AKA untransformed Mordecai. He's transforming quickly and destroying all in his way.

Stefan, Oscar, Kieran, Titania, and Mordecai are all doing better than Muraim at his joining. Stefan, Titania, and Mordecai are all destroying everything and being generally awesome at this point, Oscar is immortal with Ike A, and Kieran has reliable offense and good stats all-around. Muraim is being somewhat useful, but his stats aren't as great as you state. Heck, Makalov is doing better than Muraim in like, one chapter, because of his incredible growths. Muraim loses most his use very quickly.

Zihark will be supporting Brom and Ilyana before Muraim even joins. Since they're around longer, more time to gain the benefits of supporting. Tanith destroys Muraim in every way possible because Reinforce is an incredible skill and she actually has good enough stats and supports to keep up with everyone else.

Zihark>Nephenee. He actually isn't mediocre at joining, actually benefitting with good enough Strength and Speed. Zihark also has great supports in Brom and Ilyana, giving +25% Avoid. Nephenee's supports are very unreliable, getting only Devdan B if he's fielded. Brom has Zihark and Boyd for good offense, and Calill joins a bit late to be of too much use.

Oh, and even if Largo is fielded, he has competition from Devdan and Tauroneo.

Rhys can stay away from enemy attacks and use Physic or something. Oscar wants Ike A, Tanith B for immortality, so no Kieran support. Kieran is getting Marcia A, but a B with Rhys is always good for him. Titania can then A support with Rhys, which improves his durability somewhat.

What about Devdan then? Or does Tormod support, having better luck & using the Knight Ward* make him better?
*-Speed is where he really loses out.

I always thought these kinds of things were daft for a game where you use multiple characters at once. If the player has to relly on lists (maybe with numbers) to dictate who they should and shouldn't use in the game prehaps they are best to go to youtube and watch a playthrough of the game as they probably don't have the capacity to make their own decisions with regard to unit movement and the like either.

I'll enjoy using "Rofl" to give much needed weakening of enemies early on and you can enjoy getting Lucia stuck between a rock and a hard place.

You guessed it! Full attack from the fast Tormod support and Knight's Ward instantly makes Devdan the superior. Speed isn't much of a problem for Devdan.

You can use whatever characters you like; a tier list is just a fun debate to determine best to worst...

Rofl can't weaken things with his horrible Strength. Lucia at least can use Silver Swords for some sort of offense.

[Derpicane]

Also, Rofl is never 'useful'. His stats are horrible and is killing only a single enemy per turn.

...as opposed to...?

[kryptonite]

I think there are too many holes in this "tier list" and I'm kind of lazy. >_>

Ike should be top. The only chapter in which he doesn't pwn is 17 because of forced 1/2 Skl and Spd...

And in HM, I got my whole team to 20/20.

As for Rolf, he's pretty good when trained, and Shinon's bases are like a level 10 Archer's. However, Snipers suck because they can't kill more than one enemy a turn unless a mage/archer/enemy attacks from 2 spaces exactly on enemy phase.

IMO, Zihark and Mia fail because of their performance before promotion... Admittedly, Zihark is closer, but he should be so far above Mia, especially without FE10's support in one chapter.

[Lord Fuckboy]

Come to think of it, your god tier sucks.  Where's Weegee and ?

Meh, there might be a couple. It’s been a while since I played, too. Most of them have Hand Axe as their primary equipment, though.

Lucia’s still doing more damage than Rofl can ever hope to.

I still think that weakening a few enemies during the early-game > not really doing much of anything at all later on.

Not bothering with Zihark vs Ike since Zihark's below him anyway.

Astrid is gaining levels at about triple the rate everyone else is with Elite. Her offense grows huge very quickly. And after promotion, she can use a Steel Axe and one-round things while still doubling. Astrid becomes very powerful in only a chapter or two.

It stagnates from triple to double, even in which case she's attacking once per turn due to a bow.  That's about 30 EXP, I guess like 90 per kill, per turn requiring her about 4 or 5 chapters to properly catch up.

Ike is still doing better until Astrid promotes, in which case I'd put them about even despite Astrid gaining Axes; Ike's evade and offense blow through the roof due to his supports and his promotion, so he's better at the frontlines than Astrid.  He's also more durable in general, and can dish out hits when he takes them pre- and post- promotion.

Not really. Makalov is two-rounding the Steel Axe Bandits, on par with most of the other characters.

I want to see some numbers to back this up, because I heavily doubt this.

With Marcia’s excellent Movement, Makalov is likely to be recruited at Turn 2, giving him a couple turns to battle. The next chapter has many slow Steel Lance Loldiers that he two rounds with Steel Sword, and gets like, five-rounded by them, so durability isn’t an issue.

Putting Marcia out there in Turn 2 is fail, because she doesn't have the defense to survive the hits.  She has some 25 HP and defense around the early teens at this point?

Regardless, if Makalov two-rounds them then other characters should be one-rounding, and even then Makalov's not going to be fighting all of them.  Ike sustains a lead until promotion, I'd say, and is also helping your unit out quite well before Makalov arrives like 45% of the way into the game.

Rhys is promoting early than Soren due to Staff experience.  Also, Soren is horrible until his mid-teens. One-rounded by many enemies and two-rounded by everything that doesn’t kill him outright.

And BEXP.  One heal per turn when each chapter is about 8 turns equates to barely a level-up.  In which case, BEXP can also be invested in Soren (worst-case scenario)...  and even then, Soren tends not to get one-rounded.  Two-rounded maybe, but whatever applies to Soren applies to Rhys when it comes to durability; Soren excelling in evade later on.

I don't care if you're not supposed to put healers out on the frontlines, in some way shape or form they WILL get hit, and for Rhys it can be fatal.  Especially since Rhys will always have 3 less Speed than Soren throughout the game.

Soren’s Avoid doesn’t pick up until level 16, where he has about 52% (Which is still nearly as high as Rofl’s end-game Avoid ). Rhys’ early-game healing is much more important than Soren’s rather mediocre indirect combat.

It gets fine in the mid-game.  If you pump equal BEXP into both, Soren will end up more durable and offensively-adept than Rhys, no matter how you put it.  More speed, magic, and a better magic type to boot...  and until promotion, Soren actually has offense that picks up after a couple levels of BEXP.  Not really a big deal to pump BEXP into either of them...  and he's also just as capable as your other units for taking down Armors.

Even once Soren promotes, he can still use only Heal, while Rhys (And Mist ) can use Barrier and Physic to increase his levels even higher. I think Rhys’ usefulness for early and mid-game is better than Soren’s better late-game.

And so?  An extra Heal never hurts, especially on an idle turn; healing 30 HP is still decent, while we're on that subject.

[Lord Kratos]

Any kills the Reinforcements get added to BEXP. No problem there. Besides, clearing the chapters is more important than experience farming.

Wrong. Check the BEXP screen at the end of each chapter. I have tested it several times and Tanith's reinforcements add nothing.

Also, in lategame, the reinforcements suck, so she is worse in every way compared to the god tiers (well, she wins mobility against Boyd)

Mordecai, until around Chapter 18, is reliably doubling anyways. And once 18 comes, he'll have so much Attack that he's still dealing as much damage as most the characters who double.

Nah, his offense is not equal to others after ch18. For starters, his claws are barely stronger than a steel sword, and he has no killers/slayers/forged weapons and half of the time his offense doesn't even exist. Add low speed on top of that and you get a mediocre offense.

Ilyana is the best Sage, though. She's doing pretty good for most the game, and all her support options want her. Especially since Ilyana can use the strongest magic with minimal/no AS loss. Also, MordecaixIlyana is really fast, and IlyanaxZihark is also fast enough for a B option. Support range is three; it's very easy to be within range of everyone she supports.

"Best *class*" argument doesn't work. That's like saying: "Elincia is the best Princess Crimea, high tier lol" Plus, Illyana is very comparable to Calill (I have won a Calill vs Illyana debaet against a better debaeter than me, in case you wanna read) "strongest magic with minimal/no AS loss" is irrelevant. Soren, for example, may lose some speed, but he has more speed than Illyana so it doesn't matter.

Zihark takes both Illyana and Muarim since Brom doesn't want his earth affinity bonus and is full with Nephenee and Boyd. And since Muarim's bonus is better he'll take Muarim A, Illyana B

Mordecai makes more use out of the Demi Band than Muraim does, with the former's lower transform gauge. And before the Band, enemies target characters who can't counter, AKA untransformed Mordecai. He's transforming quickly and destroying all in his way.

We get back to the point of Mordecai taking the band from a better unit =/ Also, everything someone atttacks him untrasformed he is as useless as an archer, no wait, more useless because archers at least can counter from range.

Stefan, Oscar, Kieran, Titania, and Mordecai are all doing better than Muraim at his joining. Stefan, Titania, and Mordecai are all destroying everything and being generally awesome at this point, Oscar is immortal with Ike A, and Kieran has reliable offense and good stats all-around. Muraim is being somewhat useful, but his stats aren't as great as you state. Heck, Makalov is doing better than Muraim in like, one chapter, because of his incredible growths. Muraim loses most his use very quickly.

Stefan has slighty better offense and way worse defense.
Stats are HP/STR/SKL/SPD/DEF/RES/LCK
Muarim (demi band): 45/16/13/15/12/5/11
Oscar 18/0:  34/12/13/13/13/4/9 (worse in every stat except DEF)
Kieran 18/0: 33/14/13/14/12/2/9 (ties DEF, worse in every other stat)
Mordecai Lv5: 45/16/9/9/14/4/11 (Muarim's SKL and SPD>>2 DEF)

I hope the Makalov comment was a joke, because he'd need to be promoted in order to tie with Muarim, and he's not gaining 11 levels in 1 chapter.

Zihark will be supporting Brom and Ilyana before Muraim even joins. Since they're around longer, more time to gain the benefits of supporting. Tanith destroys Muraim in every way possible because Reinforce is an incredible skill and she actually has good enough stats and supports to keep up with everyone else.

You missed the point about Tanith. Of course she is a better unit overall, but you place her way too high even tough she joins later than Muarim, while you say "Muarim joins too late" as an excuse to put him in mid. You are not being objective there.

Zihark>Nephenee. He actually isn't mediocre at joining, actually benefitting with good enough Strength and Speed. Zihark also has great supports in Brom and Ilyana, giving +25% Avoid. Nephenee's supports are very unreliable, getting only Devdan B if he's fielded. Brom has Zihark and Boyd for good offense, and Calill joins a bit late to be of too much use.

Neph has 2 less Str, but lances have 2 more Mt than swords. The SPD problem is fixed with a couple bexp levels and the combat she has before Zihark joins. They are very similar before promotion (altough I admit you could say Zihark wins by a little) but after promotion Nephenee's offense is better, she has both avoid and defense, unlike Zihark who only has avoid, and she has Wrath which can be more destructive than Adept and Neph also has ranged combat.  I can't see a tier difference between them, even if Zihark is the superior one.

Uhh for supports, the best setups are (this also is helpful for the rest of the argument, since it will cover all the units we are discussing and more):

Devdan/Calill  -B- Nephenee -A-  Brom -B-  Boyd -A- Titania -B- Ike -A- Soren
Largo -B- Muarim -A- Zihark -B- Illyana -A- Mordecai -B- Mist -A- Jill -B- Haar -B- Makalov -A- Astrid -B- Sothe - A - Tormod -B- Calill/Devdan

Oscar -A- Kieran -B- Marcia -A- Tanith -B- Oscar

I doubt you'll find something better than that.
 

Rhys can stay away from enemy attacks and use Physic or something. Oscar wants Ike A, Tanith B for immortality, so no Kieran support. Kieran is getting Marcia A, but a B with Rhys is always good for him. Titania can then A support with Rhys, which improves his durability somewhat.

Then Rhys is the same as an archer. One good action during your turn, useless during the enemy's...

A Kieran B Tanith >> A Ike B Tanith

He doesn't die either way, but gets atk from Kieran. better offense and 100% durability>>>>>>150% durability. And Kieran and Oscar stay together more easily because both have the same move.

Also, that leaves Ike with room for supporting Titania (see support chain above)

[DMAMAMAMAMAMAMAMAMA JonnyJon]

Rofl can't be raised in the chapters. At joining, there are a ton of Armour Knights and Loldiers which Rofl can't damage and they'll kill him easily. Also, the Bandits have to be killed early or you lose the villages, so Rolf can't kill them.

He doesn't need to kill anyone at that point; he gets enough EXP just getting in hits.

Just a couple of examples. Also, Rofl is never 'useful'. His stats are horrible and is killing only a single enemy per turn. If anything, he's a huge hindrance to the team.

Having an Archer is simply a hindrance. Being unable to attack more than one enemy a turn is a huge disadvantage. The only exception is Astrid, since she can run away and gain Axes after promotion.

In your gameplay style, maybe, but I don't play like you do. I don't want to kill people on the enemy's turn--that means I don't get to choose who gets what experience. There's a reason I stuff a bow in Oscar's hand the second he promotes and rarely part it from him. I don't play sweeping offenses most of the time; I like to tank with my generals and paladins and pick people off from the rear lines as I advance slowly, carefully choosing who gets what kill.

This strategy renders your tier list useless.

Uh...stats kind of makes the effectiveness of the character.

As you yourself pointed out, they're only part of a character. I don't pick my characters solely on growths, so I get tired of FESS trying to make sweet, sweet love to stats.

(And, for the record, yes I do sometimes pick characters based on attractiveness.)

Besides, aren't the previous tier lists years old and thus, very outdated?

Um... No, because there is no tier list for Fire Emblem. It's not a fighting game, it's a strategy RPG where multiple characters are in play at any given time.

Also, the general consensus does agree with Largo>Rofl and Titania>Ike.

Since... When? And where, for that matter! Certainly not on Jeiganphobic FESS.

[Lord Fuckboy]

I think Largo is better than Rolf myself, DMA :p  But look at what Largo has going for him - best weapon in the game with high Strength, HP, and Speed.  Rolf has the worst physical weapon in the game and his bases aren't too strong either.  I can actually see him doing well, but I dunno it reminds me of Nino in some ways...  except to not nearly her extent.

This strategy renders your tier list useless.

In his defense, FE9 stuff relies on full BEXP (with some exceptions iirc..)

[DMAMAMAMAMAMAMAMAMA JonnyJon]

I think Largo is better than Rolf myself, DMA :p  But look at what Largo has going for him - best weapon in the game with high Strength, HP, and Speed.  Rolf has the worst physical weapon in the game and his bases aren't too strong either.  I can actually see him doing well, but I dunno it reminds me of Nino in some ways...  except to not nearly her extent.

I've never been able to get any real use out of Largo. By the time I get him, he's already outclassed for the most part. I wish they'd give you a way to get late characters sooner if you fulfil certain goals/sub-objectives.

[Lord Fuckboy]

To be fair, Rolf is also fairly outclassed by a lot of people. 
Besides, Largo being outclassed doesn't have a bearing on how good he is...  it makes him less worthwhile as opposed to bad. 

[UchihaHunter]

A Kieran B Tanith >> A Ike B Tanith

He doesn't die either way, but gets atk from Kieran. better offense and 100% durability>>>>>>150% durability. And Kieran and Oscar stay together more easily because both have the same move.

Hmm...I agree with most of your post, but Oscar gets hit and evade from Kieran, not atk...furthermore, imo, the support chain between these people should be...


Oscar: A Kieran, B Tanith
Tanith: A Marcia, B Oscar
Marcia: A Tanith, B Kieran
Kieran: A Oscar, B Marcia

With Ike getting an A with Soren somewhere on that team.  And are we seriously debating Rhys vs. Soren?  Rhys can't break 20exp a turn until you get a Physic, and I don't think you get one of those until the desert chapter.  Even then, the Physic gives 330exp, which still can only be used once a turn, since you don't get Reyson until like...Chapter 18?  You could use Rhys, but I don't see how Rhys is better than Mist, much less Soren.

Also...Ilyana being better than Soren?  That's got to be a joke.  Earlier joining time + hax Mag/Skl/Spd + Decent Supports >>  Thunder Magic + Decent Supports

[Lord Fuckboy]

I didn't even notice the Ilyana > Soren bit lol, care to back this one up Swordsalmon?

Soren, for example, may lose some speed, but he has more speed than Illyana so it doesn't matter.

And more magic despite a weaker primary magic type.  There's a 2 damage difference between Thunder and Wind, and even then Soren has a much larger lead in Magic and Speed so he's doubling more and compensating.

[Lord Kratos]

Hmm...I agree with most of your post, but Oscar gets hit and evade from Kieran, not atk...furthermore, imo, the support chain between these people should be...

Oops. Yeah, you are right. Marcia was the one with the fire affinity, not Kieran >_>

In your gameplay style, maybe, but I don't play like you do. I don't want to kill people on the enemy's turn--that means I don't get to choose who gets what experience. There's a reason I stuff a bow in Oscar's hand the second he promotes and rarely part it from him. I don't play sweeping offenses most of the time; I like to tank with my generals and paladins and pick people off from the rear lines as I advance slowly, carefully choosing who gets what kill.

This strategy renders your tier list useless.

Well, tier lists assume you are playing efficiently , like if there were ranks, meaning rating higher units that help you with faster chapter completion.

[UchihaHunter]

In addition, Ilyana's offense fails in comparison to Soren's.  Even if we assume that Soren + Wind has the same Atk as Ilyana + Thunder (which is already wrong until she can use Rexbolt), she's still slower and doesn't come with Adept.

[Swordsalmon]

Wrong. Check the BEXP screen at the end of each chapter. I have tested it several times and Tanith's reinforcements add nothing.

Also, in lategame, the reinforcements suck, so she is worse in every way compared to the god tiers (well, she wins mobility against Boyd)

Nah, his offense is not equal to others after ch18. For starters, his claws are barely stronger than a steel sword, and he has no killers/slayers/forged weapons and half of the time his offense doesn't even exist. Add low speed on top of that and you get a mediocre offense.

"Best *class*" argument doesn't work. That's like saying: "Elincia is the best Princess Crimea, high tier lol" Plus, Illyana is very comparable to Calill (I have won a Calill vs Illyana debaet against a better debaeter than me, in case you wanna read) "strongest magic with minimal/no AS loss" is irrelevant. Soren, for example, may lose some speed, but he has more speed than Illyana so it doesn't matter.

Zihark takes both Illyana and Muarim since Brom doesn't want his earth affinity bonus and is full with Nephenee and Boyd. And since Muarim's bonus is better he'll take Muarim A, Illyana B

We get back to the point of Mordecai taking the band from a better unit =/ Also, everything someone atttacks him untrasformed he is as useless as an archer, no wait, more useless because archers at least can counter from range.

Stefan has slighty better offense and way worse defense.
Stats are HP/STR/SKL/SPD/DEF/RES/LCK
Muarim (demi band): 45/16/13/15/12/5/11
Oscar 18/0:  34/12/13/13/13/4/9 (worse in every stat except DEF)
Kieran 18/0: 33/14/13/14/12/2/9 (ties DEF, worse in every other stat)
Mordecai Lv5: 45/16/9/9/14/4/11 (Muarim's SKL and SPD>>2 DEF)

I hope the Makalov comment was a joke, because he'd need to be promoted in order to tie with Muarim, and he's not gaining 11 levels in 1 chapter.

You missed the point about Tanith. Of course she is a better unit overall, but you place her way too high even tough she joins later than Muarim, while you say "Muarim joins too late" as an excuse to put him in mid. You are not being objective there.

Neph has 2 less Str, but lances have 2 more Mt than swords. The SPD problem is fixed with a couple bexp levels and the combat she has before Zihark joins. They are very similar before promotion (altough I admit you could say Zihark wins by a little) but after promotion Nephenee's offense is better, she has both avoid and defense, unlike Zihark who only has avoid, and she has Wrath which can be more destructive than Adept and Neph also has ranged combat.  I can't see a tier difference between them, even if Zihark is the superior one.

Uhh for supports, the best setups are (this also is helpful for the rest of the argument, since it will cover all the units we are discussing and more):

Devdan/Calill  -B- Nephenee -A-  Brom -B-  Boyd -A- Titania -B- Ike -A- Soren
Largo -B- Muarim -A- Zihark -B- Illyana -A- Mordecai -B- Mist -A- Jill -B- Haar -B- Makalov -A- Astrid -B- Sothe - A - Tormod -B- Calill/Devdan

Oscar -A- Kieran -B- Marcia -A- Tanith -B- Oscar

I doubt you'll find something better than that.
 

Then Rhys is the same as an archer. One good action during your turn, useless during the enemy's...

A Kieran B Tanith >> A Ike B Tanith

He doesn't die either way, but gets atk from Kieran. better offense and 100% durability>>>>>>150% durability. And Kieran and Oscar stay together more easily because both have the same move.

Also, that leaves Ike with room for supporting Titania (see support chain above)

Ha, I got owned. Sorry for the mistake. Still, the BEXP gained by beating the chapter faster by thier contributions will outweight the "lost" experience, especially since the four Steel Lance Pegasus Knights are two-rounding, weakening enemies for the usable character.

Mordecai transformed has 31 Attack at base level and is doubling everything due to his higher Speed. He has the best offense for a while. After gaining let's say...five levels, at Chapter 18, his Attack will be...
37 Attack
11 AS
Ilyana A, Mist B

And yes, both Ilyana and Mist want Mordecai's supports. They're extremely fast, Ilyana gives full Defense, and Mist provides full Attack and Defense. Also, the primary soldiers of the Daein campaign are Armour Knights, Loldiers, and Steel Lance Wyvern Riders. Mordecai can double the Loldiers and Armour Knights reliably, and probably quite a few Wyverns. Also, Mordecai can use the Laguz Stones or Demi Band to stay transformed, so it's likely he won't mind the slow transformation

Zihark wants Ilyana more than Muraim since she joins earlier, and they will of built a C support by Muraim's joining. Faster bonuses are needed, especially with a character like Zihark who's reliant on fast supports to have good Avoid. Unless of course the bonuses are horrible beyond belief in comparison to others (OscarxKieran comes in mind), but they're pretty comparable in this case. Ilyana gives Zihark +1 Defense much earlier, so yay to aiding concrete Defense.

Lol, Brom not wanting Zihark's Earth affinity. Remember that Brom's Avoid is already pretty good from Knight's Ward and high Luck. The +15% Avoid aids greatly in making him dodge attacks even more, making Brom nigh-indestructable. Brom doesn't want Nephenee support because the bonuses suck.

Tanith has a unique skill that boosts the team's overall offense hugely. Regardless of her stats or joining, that makes her much better than Muraim can ever hope.

The reinforcements still provide a distraction, and the Silver Lance Falconknight is two-rounding many enemies.

That debate link shows a few flaws in your argument, such as "Zihark wanting Muraim's superior bonuses instead of Ilyana's crappy bonuses" when all Muraim gives is 2.5% more Avoid while starting later, so Zihark is frailer when he needs durability. Also, Calill is likely to get only Nephenee A, assuming she's even played. Tormod always wants Devdan A, Reyson B for +5 Attack and actually becoming good and the supports are epic-hax. And besides, Tormod's period of fail makes him unlikely to be played in the first place, especially if you don't plan on fielding Devdan. Without Devdan, Tormod sucks. Also, you totally disregarded Ilyana's use before promotion, which is at least on-par to Soren. Enough Attack to use Thunder and good tomes while still doubling does aid alot in the chapters. Inui's points are much more relevant, especially in terms of support options. Also, on the Soren's 'high Speed', he's beating Ilyana by 1-2 points for most the game, so if both are using high-powered tomes, Ilyana is beating Soren offensively because her much higher Strength makes AS loss minimal.

Using tons of BEXP on Nephenee won't fix her horrible weapon rank in Lances. Using only Iron and Javelin for several levels=epic phail. Zihark is also promoting slightly earlier due to killing things faster (Steel Sword and Killing Edge>>>>>Javelin) and actually has supports until Calill comes. Wrath isn't reliable either, since it requires Nephenee to be near death. I don't think we want our characters dying, eh?

These are better supports:

Ike; Oscar A, Soren B for massive Avoid and having quick speed.
Oscar; Ike A, Kieran/Tanith B Immortality egardless, Ike support is necessary.
Kieran; Marcia A, Oscar/Rhys B
Devdan; Tormod A, Nephenee B
Calill; Nephenee A
Zihark; Brom A, Ilyana B
Brom; Zihark A, Boyd B
Boyd; Titania A/B, Brom B
Titania; Boyd/Rhys A, Boyd/Rhys B
Rhys; Titania A/B, Kieran B
Mordecai; Ilyana A, Mist B
Mist; Jill A, Mordecai B
Ilyana; Mordecai A, Zihark B
Marcia; Kieran A, Tanith B
Tanith; Oscar B, Marcia B, Reyson C OR Reyson A, Oscar/Marica B
Reyson; Tanith A, Tormod B
Tormod: Devdan A, Reyson B
Soren: Ike B
Sothe; Astrid B
Astrid; Makalov A, Sothe B
Makalov; Astrid A

The only characters that get really shafted are Soren and Sothe, but Soren has only Ike B for a reliable option (Besides Oscar fufilling the Second Coming with Ike A, Ike wants the +30% Avoid so his durability is actually good. Giving Soren A is very slow, severely weakening Ike for a long time).

Only reason Oscar would want Kieran is so the latter has some extra Avoid.

Oh, and Boyd doesn't really need an A support if Rhys is fielded.

I didn't even notice the Ilyana > Soren bit lol, care to back this one up Swordsalmon?
And more magic despite a weaker primary magic type.  There's a 2 damage difference between Thunder and Wind, and even then Soren has a much larger lead in Magic and Speed so he's doubling more and compensating.

Besides Soren's lack of supports (lol Stefan), at joining, Soren is a severe detriment to the team. He's extremely frail, his attacks are weak, and joins right when the game's at its hardest. Ilyana has Shade and supports to built up her durability. Both characters are basically even for most the game, but Ilyana has a lesser period of fail. Also, Soren's Magic and Speed are only slightly higher than Ilyana's (About 2-3 points at best), but she can use the more powerful tomes while still maintaining good AS and Avoid.

[UchihaHunter]

Sigh.  A few things...

Using tons of BEXP on Nephenee won't fix her horrible weapon rank in Lances. Using only Iron and Javelin for several levels=epic phail. Zihark is also promoting slightly earlier due to killing things faster (Steel Sword and Killing Edge>>>>>Javelin) and actually has supports until Calill comes. Wrath isn't reliable either, since it requires Nephenee to be near death. I don't think we want our characters dying, eh?

First of all, Wrath in this game requires half-life...considering Nephenee's durability, that definitely doesn't mean near death...this isn't FE10...the point on the weapon rank is valid though

The only characters that get really shafted are Soren and Sothe, but Soren has only Ike B for a reliable option (Besides Oscar fufilling the Second Coming with Ike A, Ike wants the +30% Avoid so his durability is actually good. Giving Soren A is very slow, severely weakening Ike for a long time).

...Ike needs Oscar to have good durability?  I forgot that Aether + decent standard avoid + high HP and DEF = bad durability.  Guess I need to play the game again.  If Ike's got bad standard durability, so does Oscar (this isn't true either, in case you were wondering)

Only reason Oscar would want Kieran is so the latter has some extra Avoid.

Yea, because having a character that actually has the same movement support with him is horrible...

Besides Soren's lack of supports (lol Stefan), at joining, Soren is a severe detriment to the team. He's extremely frail, his attacks are weak, and joins right when the game's at its hardest. Ilyana has Shade and supports to built up her durability. Both characters are basically even for most the game, but Ilyana has a lesser period of fail. Also, Soren's Magic and Speed are only slightly higher than Ilyana's (About 2-3 points at best), but she can use the more powerful tomes while still maintaining good AS and Avoid.

Wow...I forgot that Soren's supports don't build up his durability, that having a very high chance of maxing Magic = weak attack, that Adept isn't an important skill, and that Ike and Soren supporting frees up Oscar for better supports (He can use Tanith if he really needs an Earth)

Also...http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?game=9e

Check that link for actual calculations for characters instead of pulling numbers out of your ass, please.

[Lord Fuckboy]

Right now I'm waiting for a refute to my arguments.

Besides Soren's lack of supports (lol Stefan), at joining, Soren is a severe detriment to the team.

lol Ike

He's extremely frail, his attacks are weak, and joins right when the game's at its hardest.

And Ilyana doesn't?

Ilyana has Shade and supports to built up her durability.

Shade is the only thing I'll give you.  Ilyana has a +15 at best with Zihark, and a +1 in Defense if you want it early on.  Soren x Ike builds up decently and gives the +15 in evade before Zihark/Ilyana A, and on an A rank support Soren/Ike is +22 Evade.  22 Evade > 15 evade and +1 Defense to an already craptastic defense!  To a character that needs evade a lot more!

Both characters are basically even for most the game, but Ilyana has a lesser period of fail.

No.  Soren may not be invaluable during the early parts, but he's there and is still not a huge detriment (not as large a detriment as Rhys I must add!)  It's not like the process to build up Ilyana is any easier.

Also, Soren's Magic and Speed are only slightly higher than Ilyana's (About 2-3 points at best), but she can use the more powerful tomes while still maintaining good AS and Avoid.

Slightly more speed is 2-3 more?
Regardless, even if 2-3 is slight, Soren's AS loss from heavier tomes will put them on the same Speed level (assuming you're abusing the shit out of Thunder magic throughout the game).  And with Wind tomes on the same level as Ilyana, he'll still lead in AS (by a full 3) while maintaining the same, if not more attack.  Especially because of his Ike support, and hell Stefan can reinforce his attack more if you decide to go that route...

Soren is offensively superior to Ilyana.  Soren will also be at Ilyana's level more or less by the time you recruit her.

[Neofox]

I guess since everyone else is arguing at this point I should join in... what are your reasonings for placing Ranulf and Calill where they are?

[UchihaHunter]

Some more things I just noticed, in regards to Rolf...

Rofl can't be raised in the chapters. At joining, there are a ton of Armour Knights and Loldiers which Rofl can't damage and they'll kill him easily. Also, the Bandits have to be killed early or you lose the villages, so Rolf can't kill them.

This must be a joke.  I don't think that Rolf tinks any Soldiers or Myrmidons in that chapter even in Maniac Mode, so please, spare me that.

No-one should be fighting in Chapter 10 anyways.

Huh?  I guess you're talking about the whole getting out of the chapter without being detected.  That's fine and all, and it does give you some good BEXP, but if the argument is that you're actually using Rolf, then you'd obviously fight in that chapter...

Chapter 11 has...several level 1 Fighters and Myrmidons. Too bad they have to survive the chapter. Otherwise, nothing but Armour Knights and Social Knights which destroy Rofl directly.

They also destroy Ilyana directly, yet you claim that she's decent >_>  Anyway, I'm not sure if you've noticed this, but Rolf is a tank when compared with Ilyana.  In addition, just as you wouldn't have Ilyana attack anyone directly unless she was killing, you wouldn't leave Rolf out in the open if you had any semblance of a strategy.

Chapter 12 is exclusively Ravens. Many can double and kill Rofl.

Err, what strategy do you use for this chapter where anyone but 2 people get attacked by Ravens?  If anything, this is a champion chapter for Rolf, since he can snipe off the Ravens with his bow or a Steel Bow by that point.

Chapter 13 has more Loldiers and Mages. Also, you have to reach the chests on the boats before the Ravens can get them, while recruting Astrid on turn 1.

Using Mordecai makes it ridiculously easy to recruit Astrid turn 1, so that's not a problem.  In addition, you already have Titania, Oscar, and Kieran to rampage the boats.  Volke can easily make his rounds in this chapter as well, and even if a Raven does get to a chest, Rolf can get the item back by killing the Raven.  Of course, if a Raven got to the chest, you must either have bad strategy, a bad team, or bad luck.

Just a couple of examples. Also, Rofl is never 'useful'. His stats are horrible and is killing only a single enemy per turn. If anything, he's a huge hindrance to the team.

Sigh.  Rolf's stats are more or less the same as Astrid, yet her stats aren't horrible.  Also, Rolf can attack at range with reliable accuracy and do actual physical damage to Wyverns, so I'd say he's far from a hindrance

Also, wtf at saying that Rolf being able to do one action a turn is bad for him to level, but Mist doing the same isn't.  If anyone followed what you said, and tried to finish every chapter as fast as you can, avoid battling the Laguz in Chapter 15 for the BEXP, avoided combat completely in Chapter 10 for the BEXP, then your healers will all be at a pretty low level.

In addition, I saw a pretty long support chain at some point in this thread.  If you're trying to finish as fast as you can and get everyone to as high of a level as you can, I'm pretty sure that (for NA Hard Mode), 10 is more or less the number of characters you can use.  Considering that Ike is a godly character and is required for the entire game, this is the best team, imo

Ike: A Soren (All he needs)
Oscar: A Kieran, B Tanith (H4x durability)
Kieran: A Oscar, B Marcia (See above, plus some atk)
Marcia: A Tanith, B Kieran (...)
Tanith: A Marcia, B Oscar (...)
Soren: A Ike (Really, all he needs)
Mist: A Jill, B Titania (Gives much needed Def)
Jill: A Mist, B...Lethe or Haar or whatever (She's pretty fine by herself, but with Mist, she increases her already stellar durability)
Titania: A Boyd, B Mist (Because even with Axes, she needs all the Atk she can get...)
Boyd: A Titania (Gives him some Def that he needs >>)

and... Volke and Reyson for utility purposes

Really, Muarim and Mordecai are fine to use, even in NA HM, but why would you ever use a 1 range character that (in Mordecai's case) gets 43 Atk with 20 Spd even at maximum Level, or (in Muarim's case) 40 Atk with 24 Spd?  Not to mention that for them to always be able to battle, their stats will be even worse.  Even with maximum supports, they aren't as good as your other characters during the End Game.  It's entirely possible to get every character of the team I put up there to Level ??/20 by the last chapter, so that's really not an issue.

[Neofox]

Why do people keep saying the Demi Band is required for Laguz to fight with? After playing FE9 through a couple times, I got to the point where I can time it so whichever ones I use are human when not needed, and animal when they are. It's not that hard, or at least not for me...

[UchihaHunter]

The point is that you have members of the team that are useful for little but shoving and/or rescuing for parts of the chapter.  Whether you can time it or not, it's still a pain in the ass, especially considering that none of them have ranged attacks.