FE9 Tier List

[Lord Fuckboy]

Besides, you're only losing like 10% of your stats when you equip the Demi Band.  It's not really that big a deal.

[Neofox]

The point is that you have members of the team that are useful for little but shoving and/or rescuing for parts of the chapter.  Whether you can time it or not, it's still a pain in the ass, especially considering that none of them have ranged attacks.

All units at some point will have turns where they will just stand idle. If they are human for that time, it's not going to make a difference, and if they do get attacked they'll fill their meter faster as they either dodge or not take much damage since laguz are still very durable in human form (in this game). This ignores the fact they can still be used to block off or lure enemies without killing them while human. Not having a ranged attack isn't that big a deal since the majority of enemies fight at melee range.

EDIT:

Besides, you're only losing like 10% of your stats when you equip the Demi Band.  It's not really that big a deal.

For most of their stats they only lose a point or two, but laguz only really have high strength while in animal form because their transformation bonus is 6+. Considering they can't upgrade their weapons like in FE10, they could use all the raw strength they can get.

[Lord Fuckboy]

A -2 in Strength is still a detriment how, Neofox?  Unless you have hard numbers to back this up, I really don't see this as a big deal.

[UchihaHunter]

Are we really going to say that a character that can't battle every turn is just as useful as one that can?  Really, if I need a unit that doesn't attack, I can just send a beorc out without weapons.  I'm not saying that it's impossible to use laguz, but the point is that it's easier to only use them when necessary (so basically, just to recruit Zihark and Stefan)

[DMAMAMAMAMAMAMAMAMA JonnyJon]

Are we really going to say that a character that can't battle every turn is just as useful as one that can?

If it fits the player's strategy then... Yes.

[Neofox]

A -2 in Strength is still a detriment how, Neofox?  Unless you have hard numbers to back this up, I really don't see this as a big deal.

More like a -3 or -4 detriment, and it IS significant because as I said, they cannot upgrade their weapons (which are normally about as good as steel ones... not bad, but could be better).

DMA already handled UchihaHunter's post.

[quanta]

If it fits the player's strategy then... Yes.

Let's assume your strategy doesn't involve stopping every 4 turns and waiting another 4 turns for a unit to transform.

Instead, we'll just pretend that we're smart enough to rotate units that can't fight or are too badly hurt and can't be healed to the back, so while it can be a detriment, it's not a major one. Still a downside though.

[Neofox]

Let's assume your strategy doesn't involve stopping every 4 turns and waiting another 4 turns for a unit to transform.

Within 4 turns the fighting is going to be more or less over, so your laguz no longer needs their animal form. 4 turns later you're going to be taking on the group near the boss, so your laguz will generally beast out at the times where you need them.

And before you say that never happens, I'll point out I do stuff like that in just about every mission with no real problems, and if I can do it so can anyone.

[UchihaHunter]

...if by handled you mean said something completely insignificant, then yes, it was "handled."

I feel like you guys aren't understanding my point.  It's irrelevant if it is indeed possible to utilize said units in that situation, and it is also irrelevant if that fits in your strategy.  If we use other Fire Emblems as examples, and measure by turn count, experience gained, unit survival, etc., it's a FACT that using the laguz would lower those ranks.  Unless you're able to prove that using your strategy with the laguz results in a stronger endgame team with a lower turn count, etc., then I'm going to state that while using them is entirely possible (which I never said it wasn't, btw), it is as quanta said, a downside.

Again, let me state this point again so that it sinks in.  The less functions that a unit can perform, the lower it should rank on a tier (Excluding obvious characters like dancers and thieves, that perform actions that no one else can do)

Putting down what they can't do in a list...

Attack at range
Heal
Move after acting
Attack every turn

Then, considering that none of them have exceptional offense really, and that none of them can counter mages (which are their worst enemies), most of them have no advantage outside of starting out with completely hax stats compared to your units upon joining.  This is of course countered by their lower exp gain and the fact that they will be outstripped, sooner rather than later.

Looking at the higher ranked people on FE9 tiers, they generally can do multiple tasks.  Paladins in this game can attack every turn, attack at range, and move after acting, and all have very good durability.  In addition, they can rescue almost everyone, and two of them are playable for over 80% of the game.  Jill can do most of the same, but also can fly.  Tanith can do everything Jill can do (albeit with less attack), and also has Reinforce, which can only help.  Personally, I don't think Boyd belongs in the top tier, but even looking at Boyd, he has both strong range and skilled range.  He has probably the best physical offense in the game, and with his high HP and decent supports, he has ok durability.

Really, I don't know what else to say at this point other than...if you're going to argue that having a laguz out there to shove and rescue is more effective than having an unequipped beorc out there, then I'm just going to say that your strategy is in need of improvement. 

On another note, have any of you that are defending laguz here played FE9 MM?  If so, then I'm going to ask how in the world you could argue that any laguz is higher than mid-tier in this game, lol

[Neofox]

Laguz attack every turn that you need them for. As I said, if you work it so that they are in animal form when the fighting is going on and human while you're moving forward, their transformation isn't detrimental in the least. And if they were in a previous FE (for the sake of ease we will only consider the GBA ones), finding the best strategy for using them would be highly beneficial because they not only need no promotion items, but they don't even need weapons to fight with. Even moreso if they worked the same way they did in FE10 since you can control their transformation as well as prolong it with items (something that is still cheaper than using items if you have proper strategy).

Oh, and don't pull the "I played maniac mode" card, because that is irrelevant. To explain why, let's say I never played HHM. Will I find that Florina any less good than when I played HNM? Is Oswin any less godly? Is Hector now a terrible lord? No. No matter what the difficulty level is, character stats are still the same (obviously barring hard mode bonuses, but those don't exist in FE9), and ultimately that is what matters since good characters will still be good and bad ones will still be bad. Harder difficulties don't suddenly make good characters useless, they just force you to take up different strategies.

[quanta]

If so, then I'm going to ask how in the world you could argue that any laguz is higher than mid-tier in this game, lol

Seeing as how most people here can only play the US version, it's not really terribly relevant, and on top of that. The laguz transformed stats can be very good depending. They're fucking beasts (figuratively as well as literally) and they all pack excellent move transformed. Ranulf's base stats are very good and his growths only boost that. His base stats transformed match those of Jill at the same level (who has some of the best all around stats in the game) in most areas and his base strength beats a 20/9 Jill's by 4 points, so she has to pack silver weaponry to match or beat his damage. Sure he can't fly or toss hand axes, but neither can any of your swordmasters, and his 20/15 stats are damn near unbeatable for a frontliner except for resistance. He can even grab a B support with Ike (Ike doesn't really need supports and most people have other options who want them more so A Soren/B Ranulf seems like a solid choice). He's held back by late join and having to transform, but he's still a fairly solid mid tier. Muarim's like a mini-ranulf with better joining time and characters who actually want him as a support, he seems like high tier material to me.

EDIT:

As I said, if you work it so that they are in animal form when the fighting is going on and human while you're moving forward, their transformation isn't detrimental in the least.

Yes, you could but it's still a downside, because there's plenty of times when you could just keep advancing and fighting. I'm pretty sure you almost have to force situations where you won't be fighting for four turns straight.

[UchihaHunter]

The point of bringing up MM is...if you take the game as harder from EM to NM to HM to MM, then you would also take as fact that as the game gets harder, certain characters get phased out.  The harder the game is, the more characters lose out in terms of usability.  This is seen in FE9 only if you include MM, really, since the game is beatable with just about any team even in NA HM. 

Now I could be wrong in using this logic, but in my eyes, if a character is going to be placed on high tier, they should be usable and an asset to the team in any mode.  Obviously in EM and NM, the laguz getting lower experience isn't an issue, since you get more than enough experience in either mode.  In HM, it starts to be a bit of a pain since your BEXP is lessened, but even then it's not particularly a hindrance.  In MM mode, however, you have to deal with many more enemies, all at a higher level, along with lower exp gains and lower BEXP.  In this situation, it's not really feasible to use most of the laguz.  This isn't even considering that the laguz have a lower potential for using the bands, which makes their already mediocre stats worse. 

You also say that stats are part of what's going to make a character good, but you refuse to note that while untransformed, the laguz stats aren't great, and to stay transformed the whole time, they need the Demi Band, which makes them worse than usual.  So I agree with that point, even though it helps me more than it helps you in this instance, Neofox.  If we're going to go by the logic that the mode is irrelevant, then why don't we do this debate using Easy Mode as the base?

Going to quanta's point

Using your particular example of Ranulf, at 20/15, you have a
HP/STR/SKL/SPD/DEF/RES/LCK

54/22/20/20/19/7/15 --> 54/28/24/23/24/10/15

With an Ike B and Mordecai A (I'm just going to presume you aren't going to be supporting Ranulf with Lethe), you've got the following battle stats

37 Atk, 25 Def, 165 Hit, 83 Avoid, 23 AS

Comparing that with Jill at 20/15 with just A Mist, you have...

45/23/24/23/22/11/13

Holding a Silver Lance or a Silver Axe is entirely feasible at this point, imo, so you have...

40 Atk, 25 Def, 131 Hit, 68 Avoid, 23 AS

She can have effectively 141 hit against most enemies, since they hold lances, 131 against axes, and can use a Silver Lance to get 39 Atk and 136 Hit.  Add that onto the fact that there's no chance of her randomly untransforming in a pack of enemies, can actually fight characters at range, hit and run for better Reyson opportunities, not even to mention the fact that she can use customized weapons, and you've got at least comparable offense while also having versatility (this being the key word here).

Even looking at the time of joining, if we assume Jill is at 20/9, you've got...

Jill

41/21/21/20/20/9/11

With Mist A and a Steel Axe

33 Atk, 23 Def, 118 Hit, 58 Avoid, 20 AS

against...

Ranulf

46/19/17/17/17/6/13 --> 46/25/21/20/22/9/13

33 Atk, 22 Def, 144 Hit, 53 Avoid, 20 AS

No matter which mode you use in this situation, Jill and her axe are doing comparative to Ranulf, and that's with a Steel Axe.  Considering supports and the shitacular Mt of Laguz weapons in this game, she doesn't need Silver weapons to equal Ranulf.

I'll post more about Muarim when I'm not at work >_>  But I'll acknowledge from the beginning that due to Muarim's starting stats, joining time, and good supports (lol Ranulf wtf) he should be higher than Ranulf

[SlippyToasterTrooper_UK]

Huh?  I guess you're talking about the whole getting out of the chapter without being detected.  That's fine and all, and it does give you some good BEXP, but if the argument is that you're actually using Rolf, then you'd obviously fight in that chapter...

The teir list does assume getting maximum BEXP which is the pacefist route. Thank goodness the reinforcements get the BEXP is false I don't want to imagine the efforts in luck manipulation needed to make sure the NPC Pagasus Knights (yes pegasus, not the falco knight) steall all the kills.

This topic reminds me I need to try and continue my Maniac play through sometime and bring back some actual stats.

[UchihaHunter]

Then my point towards the healers stands as valid.  There's no way in 4 hells that Mist and Rhys are getting any significant number of levels if you're finishing in the minimum turns, and avoiding combat in those chapters. 

Examples:

Rhys joins in Chapter 2 and can't participate in Chapter 3.  So between Chapter 2 and 17, he's in 15 chapters.  Assuming maximum BEXP, you have 115 turns to get Rhys to a similar level to the rest of your team (~20/1).  Then you have to subtract 12 from that for the prison break chapter, since you shouldn't be getting harmed, so you actually have 103.

I'm fairly certain that you can have 2 Physics by the end of Chapter 17, so we'll say that 30 of those turns use the Physic staves. (30 x 22 = 660).  You also have a Ward staff and Mends, so we'll say 1 full Ward staff and use Mends for the rest of the turns (15 x 17 = 255; 58 x 12 = 696).  Even with all of that experience, you still have only 16 levels.  So even if you heal every single turn, you still are going to have to waste BEXP to get a healer to a level near the rest of your team.  Mist's situation is even worse, since she can't use Mend straight off the bat.

I guess if you're dead set on using Rhys until the end of the game then of course it's possible, but not without sacrificing BEXP at some point.  Adding on to that the fact that Rhys doesn't perform a unique action and that this is obviously wasting staves, I feel that we can't realistically use the minimum turn count when debating every character.

EDIT: I also want to add on that I don't consider any of the Swordmasters to be top tier characters, and last I checked, most people didn't, so adding on the Swordmasters to the list of characters that can't attack at range or fly is irrelevant.  Not to mention that a Swordmaster can attack at range, albeit less effectively than a unit that uses Axes or Lances can, while a laguz strictly can't.

EDIT 2: In addition, this has already been mentioned, but I'm going to bring up again that laguz also can't use slayer weapons, which (while no where near as effective as in FE10 or FE4, lol) still are useful in certain chapters where you know that horse-riding units or whatever will be prevalent.

[Lord Fuckboy]

I'd personally judge with some exceptions to the "BEXP rule" - that being said, stupid shit like sneaking around in the chapter you get Volke and not attacking Laguz in the Laguz chapter - shouldn't overall count.  I don't have any arguments for it, but I'm just putting it out there.

Even regardless, I don't particularly care about the laguz myself.  I'd say Muarim's like Mid or top low, Ranulf being around that area, and everyone else somewhere in Low.

This is seen in FE9 only if you include MM, really, since the game is beatable with just about any team even in NA HM.

Tier lists would assume which one would make the game as easy to beat as possible, for lack of better words.  If you can beat it in NA HM, then it means that it's going to be a balanced game, overall...  in fact, I'd just remove Bottom tier and put all of them at the bottom of Low because of that.  With stuff like Oscar/Kieran being the only top tiers and the rest assorted in the high/mid/low parts.

And I wouldn't factor Maniac mode either...  I don't think most of us have even played it to judge.

[Neofox]

The point of bringing up MM is...if you take the game as harder from EM to NM to HM to MM, then you would also take as fact that as the game gets harder, certain characters get phased out.  The harder the game is, the more characters lose out in terms of usability.  This is seen in FE9 only if you include MM, really, since the game is beatable with just about any team even in NA HM. 

Did you even read my post? I specifically said that TACTICS are what changes in difficulty modes, while characters are more or less unchanged. I've not played FE9 Maniac Mode, but I have played FE10's Maniac Mode and Thracia, and I can honestly say that harder difficulties do NOT make good characters turn bad, they just require a change in tactics.

Now I could be wrong in using this logic, but in my eyes, if a character is going to be placed on high tier, they should be usable and an asset to the team in any mode.  Obviously in EM and NM, the laguz getting lower experience isn't an issue, since you get more than enough experience in either mode.  In HM, it starts to be a bit of a pain since your BEXP is lessened, but even then it's not particularly a hindrance.  In MM mode, however, you have to deal with many more enemies, all at a higher level, along with lower exp gains and lower BEXP.  In this situation, it's not really feasible to use most of the laguz.  This isn't even considering that the laguz have a lower potential for using the bands, which makes their already mediocre stats worse. 

This isn't FE10, laguz gain as much experience as prepromotes like Titania and Calill. Treat them as such, and they gain EXP at a fully reasonable rate. Bands? Again, this is not FE10, as laguz have very high growths in this game and bands help them average better just like everyone else. For the last bit I'll ignore that Maniac Mode is rather irrelevant since very few here have the ability to play it and reiterate that harder modes do not suddenly make good characters useless. Good ones are always good and bad ones are always bad.

You also say that stats are part of what's going to make a character good, but you refuse to note that while untransformed, the laguz stats aren't great, and to stay transformed the whole time, they need the Demi Band, which makes them worse than usual. 

Once more, you're acting like laguz are the same as in FE10. Laguz stats are still good while untransformed, as the only real huge stat boost they get while in animal form is strength, which they can't use while human, anyways. Because of this, the Demi Band only takes away 1 or 2 stats from anything that's not strength, although I personally never used it nor the Halfshift ability in FE10, so I'm probably not the best to argue over the band.

Using your particular example of Ranulf, at 20/15, you have a
HP/STR/SKL/SPD/DEF/RES/LCK

54/22/20/20/19/7/15 --> 54/28/24/23/24/10/15

With an Ike B and Mordecai A (I'm just going to presume you aren't going to be supporting Ranulf with Lethe), you've got the following battle stats

37 Atk, 25 Def, 165 Hit, 83 Avoid, 23 AS

Comparing that with Jill at 20/15 with just A Mist, you have...

45/23/24/23/22/11/13

Holding a Silver Lance or a Silver Axe is entirely feasible at this point, imo, so you have...

40 Atk, 25 Def, 131 Hit, 68 Avoid, 23 AS

She can have effectively 141 hit against most enemies, since they hold lances, 131 against axes, and can use a Silver Lance to get 39 Atk and 136 Hit.

Nice, Ranulf is only behind by 3 points of attack if she uses an axe and 2 if she uses a lance. He can keep up with her well.

Add that onto the fact that there's no chance of her randomly untransforming in a pack of enemies, can actually fight characters at range, hit and run for better Reyson opportunities, not even to mention the fact that she can use customized weapons, and you've got at least comparable offense while also having versatility (this being the key word here).

Unless the player is stupid, a laguz should *NEVER* untransform in the middle of a pack of enemies. They don't change and revert randomly, there's a clear meter on their stat screen that rises and falls at a predictable rate. Range isn't that big a deal since she's going to fight with a melee weapon like a silver axe/lance the majority of the time for more power. Give Ranulf the Knight Ring and he can hit-and-run all he wants. Customized weapons I'll give you.

Even looking at the time of joining, if we assume Jill is at 20/9, you've got...
[stats]No matter which mode you use in this situation, Jill and her axe are doing comparative to Ranulf, and that's with a Steel Axe.  Considering supports and the shitacular Mt of Laguz weapons in this game, she doesn't need Silver weapons to equal Ranulf.

Yeah, because he just joined. When Pent joins up in FE7 odds are Erk is going to be at least comparable in stats without the need for Thunder or Elfire. Does that make him inferior to Erk? No, he just needs time to catch up to people and gain supports with people who will actually be around a lot (since apparently most people really don't want to use Louise...). Same with Calill, Soren will most likely be comparable to her in stats by the time she joins, but given time she easily competes with him for being the best mage in the game.

[Lord Fuckboy]

Because of this, the Demi Band only takes away 1 or 2 stats from anything that's not strength

And now you're saying that it's a minor nuisance?

odds are Erk is going to be at least comparable in stats without the need for Thunder or Elfire.

This is pretty wrong I do believe.  Erk's like 20/3 at this point and Pent is superior statistically around then.

Give Ranulf the Knight Ring and he can hit-and-run all he wants.

Why Ranulf and not anyone else?

Regardless UchihaHunter, why should comparing them to Jill have any bearing on them whatsoever...?  If tier lists are supposed to judge individual usefulness, where exactly is Jill's attack in comparison to Ranulf fitting in on here?

[Neofox]

And now you're saying that it's a minor nuisance?

Read my previous post on the Demi band. I said strength was the only stat to take a notable loss, and here I point out that all stats but strength only take a minor loss. There is no contradiction, I just changed which stats were being looked at.

This is pretty wrong I do believe.  Erk's like 20/3 at this point and Pent is superior statistically around then.

You sure about that?

Why Ranulf and not anyone else?

Because like all laguz he has high movement and has some pretty strong raw stats, not unlike the other fliers and mounted units, which makes keeping up with them a pretty good idea.

[Lord Fuckboy]

I said strength was the only stat to take a notable loss, and here I point out that all stats but strength only take a minor loss. There is no contradiction, I just changed which stats were being looked at.

I still don't see how 4 or 6 damage is very notable against an enemy.

You sure about that?

http://www.rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Pent
http://www.rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Erk

Because like all laguz he has high movement and has some pretty strong raw stats, not unlike the other fliers and mounted units, which makes keeping up with them a pretty good idea.

Oh wait and another thing, Demi Band + Knight Ring doesn't work.  I'm sure we all knew that, although Neofox hates Demi Band

Regardless, Reyson makes a lot better use of the Knight Ring than Ranulf does.  Reyson should be getting the Knight Ring as a result, as opposed to Ranulf; Canto + Run is better than Hit + Run because Canto + Run not only gets Reyson to safety, but gives you about four more hits too.

[UchihaHunter]

Did you even read my post? I specifically said that TACTICS are what changes in difficulty modes, while characters are more or less unchanged. I've not played FE9 Maniac Mode, but I have played FE10's Maniac Mode and Thracia, and I can honestly say that harder difficulties do NOT make good characters turn bad, they just require a change in tactics.

I think you didn't read my post.  You specifically said that stats don't change with the exception of HM bonuses.  In any FE game, stats are a part of tactics.  If the stats are your team are the same, but the enemies have better stats, then those with lower stats are going to be shuffled off the team.  Considering that all the laguz can do is attack, shove, and rescue, don't have range, etc., they aren't going to be at High tier at all.  

This isn't FE10, laguz gain as much experience as prepromotes like Titania and Calill. Treat them as such, and they gain EXP at a fully reasonable rate.

Sigh.  They gain less than most of your team, and some join before there are even promoted enemies to fight, sans bosses.  Calill joins when there are promoted units to fight against, and most players would say that having Titania battle continuously in the early parts of the game is bad, so I really don't see your point.  If you treat them as prepromotes, then they lose that one advantage that they had in this game, which is higher growths.  

Bands? Again, this is not FE10, as laguz have very high growths in this game and bands help them average better just like everyone else.

Sigh, even Mordecai can only get 18 levels with bands.  Obviously, the lower the number of levels you can use the bands for, the less the bands affect your stats.  Therefore, prepromotes like the laguz inherently get less benefit.  This is also a disadvantage.

For the last bit I'll ignore that Maniac Mode is rather irrelevant since very few here have the ability to play it and reiterate that harder modes do not suddenly make good characters useless. Good ones are always good and bad ones are always bad.

Because we all know how good Nino is in HHM, right?

Nice, Ranulf is only behind by 3 points of attack if she uses an axe and 2 if she uses a lance. He can keep up with her well.

Yea, the point here is that not only can Jill keep up with Ranulf, she can also do things that he can't.  Hence the key word being versatility.  

Unless the player is stupid, a laguz should *NEVER* untransform in the middle of a pack of enemies. They don't change and revert randomly, there's a clear meter on their stat screen that rises and falls at a predictable rate.

Unless a player is stupid, why would they use a character that isn't useful in an area with a lot of enemies?  This is where different modes is relevant.  Of course, you'd throw that under tactics, since you'd hide the laguz so that they can wait to transform (or have them run away when their bar is low), but when you're trying to finish the game as efficiently as possible, it would behoove you not to use characters that aren't useful in a pack of enemies.  At least with beorc, the worst thing that can happen is that you have to heal them so that they can continue fighting.  

Range isn't that big a deal since she's going to fight with a melee weapon like a silver axe/lance the majority of the time for more power.

No one's saying "ZOMG, YOU CAN'T USE THE LAGUZ SINCE THEY DON'T HAVE RANGE!!!!"  The point is that it's a detriment, and it's not one that's made up by anything that the laguz can do better than a beorc.  

Give Ranulf the Knight Ring and he can hit-and-run all he wants. Customized weapons I'll give you.

Yea, let's go and give him the Knight Ring that's definitely more useful on Reyson for refreshing, or Volke for overall utility...and why are we doing this again?

Yeah, because he just joined. When Pent joins up in FE7 odds are Erk is going to be at least comparable in stats without the need for Thunder or Elfire. Does that make him inferior to Erk? No, he just needs time to catch up to people and gain supports with people who will actually be around a lot (since apparently most people really don't want to use Louise...). Same with Calill, Soren will most likely be comparable to her in stats by the time she joins, but given time she easily competes with him for being the best mage in the game.

Sigh.  You can take this up with quanta, since he brought up the example.  I was just expanding from that point and proving that she didn't need Silver to equal or surpass Ranulf's offense on joining.