FE9 Tier List

[Neofox]

I think you didn't read my post.  You specifically said that stats don't change with the exception of HM bonuses.  In any FE game, stats are a part of tactics.  If the stats are your team are the same, but the enemies have better stats, then those with lower stats are going to be shuffled off the team.  Considering that all the laguz can do is attack, shove, and rescue, don't have range, etc., they aren't going to be at High tier at all.

The thing is, attack/shove/rescue is what the majority of your team does. Zihark suffers from the same issue, so does that mean he now sucks? What about Ike? He can't do it reliably until he gets the Ragnell. Plus this ignores the fact that hand axes and javelins are horribly inaccurate weapons.

Sigh.  They gain less than most of your team, and some join before there are even promoted enemies to fight, sans bosses.  Calill joins when there are promoted units to fight against, and most players would say that having Titania battle continuously in the early parts of the game is bad, so I really don't see your point.  If you treat them as prepromotes, then they lose that one advantage that they had in this game, which is higher growths.

Weren't you the one saying they gain EXP slowly? And actually, most join at roughly the halfway point or later (see: muarim, the hawks, etc.), so training them like promotes isn't too hard since your team has begun promoting at that point.
 

Sigh, even Mordecai can only get 18 levels with bands.  Obviously, the lower the number of levels you can use the bands for, the less the bands affect your stats.  Therefore, prepromotes like the laguz inherently get less benefit.  This is also a disadvantage.

It's also one that applies to all prepromotes like Calill. That doesn't mean that using it on them is a waste.

Because we all know how good Nino is in HHM, right?

Nino is terrible in ALL modes, which if anything helps prove my point. She's a poor character because of the level of handholding she requires, and that's no different in HHM than it is in HNM.

Yea, the point here is that not only can Jill keep up with Ranulf, she can also do things that he can't.  Hence the key word being versatility.

But their primary jobs are the same: fight enemies. Also, why'd you use Jill of all people? She's one of the best units statistically and the fact Ranulf's battle performance is comparable to her helps show that laguz are indeed pretty strong in terms of raw stats.
  

Unless a player is stupid, why would they use a character that isn't useful in an area with a lot of enemies?

You're saying laguz are useless now?

This is where different modes is relevant.  Of course, you'd throw that under tactics, since you'd hide the laguz so that they can wait to transform (or have them run away when their bar is low),

Or let them take a few hits (assuming they even are hit... they dodge pretty well while human) to boost their meter. Or if you really can't wait, use a laguz stone to instantly fill it (which you get more of in Maniac Mode than in the NA modes).

but when you're trying to finish the game as efficiently as possible, it would behoove you not to use characters that aren't useful in a pack of enemies.

How are they any less useful in a pack of enemies than any other unit? The meter doesn't drop that fast, and besides, you'll generally want a group of units taking on a pack of enemies to share the EXP rather than just having most sit back and watch The Chosen Ones(TM) fight.

No one's saying "ZOMG, YOU CAN'T USE THE LAGUZ SINCE THEY DON'T HAVE RANGE!!!!"  The point is that it's a detriment, and it's not one that's made up by anything that the laguz can do better than a beorc.  

How is it all that detrimental when most units are using steel/silver weapons and not ranged ones? If you need to rely on range, you're likely going to rely on a mage or archer rather than try your luck with a horribly inaccurate javelin or hand axe.

Yea, let's go and give him the Knight Ring that's definitely more useful on Reyson for refreshing, or Volke for overall utility...and why are we doing this again?

It was just a possibility I brought up if you really consider not being able to move twice to be so detrimental. In reality though, Reyson will want to be singing to your healers each turn since keeping allies alive is more important than killing enemies, and although he can sing to 4 people in animal form, if he has the Knight Ring I don't see why he can't fly in and sing for both Jill and Ranulf (since both are frontline units) and then fly out.

I still don't see how 4 or 6 damage is very notable against an enemy.

It's notable when said unit can't upgrade themselves from steel to silver weapons, which is unfortunetly a flaw laguz have to deal with in this game.

[Lord Fuckboy]

It's notable when said unit can't upgrade themselves from steel to silver weapons, which is unfortunetly a flaw laguz have to deal with in this game.

That's a penalty you can blame the character for as opposed to the Demi Band.  The 4 or 6 damage refers to their overall damage output (assuming they double), NOT their weapons.  And personally, I don't even think that's too big a deal.

[UchihaHunter]

The thing is, attack/shove/rescue is what the majority of your team does. Zihark suffers from the same issue, so does that mean he now sucks? What about Ike? He can't do it reliably until he gets the Ragnell. Plus this ignores the fact that hand axes and javelins are horribly inaccurate weapons.

Are you being deliberately facetious?  I'm just wondering because I've never said that the laguz suck, just that they aren't the most efficient characters to use, and therefore don't warrant a high rank.  None of them have the playing time that Ike has, and none of them make a character as good as an A support with Ike does.  In addition, the point is that the laguz can NEVER attack at range, which is definitely a detriment.  If not attacking at range wasn't an issue, and accuracy was, then you'd give all your Paladins swords upon promotion.  In addition, you seem to like ignoring the fact that you have the option of forging Hand Axes and Javelins if they're really that bad (which they definitely aren't, but I guess when you're used to using nothing but 80+ Hit weapons, most weapons are horribly inaccurate, right?)

Weren't you the one saying they gain EXP slowly? And actually, most join at roughly the halfway point or later (see: muarim, the hawks, etc.), so training them like promotes isn't too hard since your team has begun promoting at that point.

I have no idea what you're arguing with this point.  The point is, Muarim joins at a point where there are next to no promoted enemies, yet he gets experience like a Level 9 promoted unit.  This, coupled with the fact that you're not getting as much of a trade-off in leveling him up as you are for say Oscar, makes it less efficient to use him than Oscar in this example.  Therefore, he'd be ranked below Oscar on a tier list.

It's also one that applies to all prepromotes like Calill. That doesn't mean that using it on them is a waste.

It's a waste because they aren't doing anything special for your team!  Calill has a B weapon rank in every relevant magic, so she can do effective damage against every laguz and flying unit in the game.  In addition, she can attack solely at range and even from 10 spaces away, as well as do heavy damage to Generals and the like.  Also, for the record, the only prepromote I feel should be on Top Tier is Titania, so I do think that using it on most of them is a waste when compared to other units.  In Calill's case, it's not, for reasons I've just stated, and for Tanith it's not, since she brings a unique skill, an excellent affinity, plus flying and the ability to actually use magical weapons to decent effect, but I can't really think of anyone else off the top of my head worth giving BEXP to.

Nino is terrible in ALL modes, which if anything helps prove my point. She's a poor character because of the level of handholding she requires, and that's no different in HHM than it is in HNM.

No, she's actually quite useable in Hector's and Eliwood's Normal Mode.  Her stats are good enough that she doesn't really need to raise her weapon rank, and she gains experience quick enough to become useful.  If you can use a laguz without the Demi Band, you can easily use Nino.

But their primary jobs are the same: fight enemies. Also, why'd you use Jill of all people? She's one of the best units statistically and the fact Ranulf's battle performance is comparable to her helps show that laguz are indeed pretty strong in terms of raw stats.

WOW CAN YOU FUCKING READ?!  I DIDN'T PICK JILL INITIALLY, QUANTA DID!  There.  Maybe you can actually see it now.  And I'm calling bullshit on the primary job thing.  If you only took into account the primary job of a character, then healing utility wouldn't be relevant when ranking Soren and Ilyana.  Please don't ignore advantages just because your laguz friends don't have them.

You're saying laguz are useless now?

What's your reading level again?

Or let them take a few hits (assuming they even are hit... they dodge pretty well while human) to boost their meter. Or if you really can't wait, use a laguz stone to instantly fill it (which you get more of in Maniac Mode than in the NA modes).

Yes, let's waste time when we are trying to finish the game more efficiently...that sounds like a good idea...wait a second...

And also, I find it amusing that you choose to bring up MM when bringing up something in your favor but was so adamant earlier about it being irrelevant.

How are they any less useful in a pack of enemies than any other unit? The meter doesn't drop that fast, and besides, you'll generally want a group of units taking on a pack of enemies to share the EXP rather than just having most sit back and watch The Chosen Ones(TM) fight.

Example: Pack of enemies fights beorc team with weapons.  Worst case scenario is that the weapons break.  Pack of enemies fights laguz team.  Laguz randomly transforms, leaving enemies remaining. 

Even if they get through that part ok, you don't have Olivi Grasses in this game to get the meter back up, so sooner, rather than later, they'll untransform.  Again, just because it's possible to rotate them in and out doesn't mean that that's the most efficient way to do things. 

How is it all that detrimental when most units are using steel/silver weapons and not ranged ones? If you need to rely on range, you're likely going to rely on a mage or archer rather than try your luck with a horribly inaccurate javelin or hand axe.

Wow.  If this is the logic being used, then shouldn't the Swordmasters all be higher?  In addition, that would make Ike literally God, since that's about his only issue.

It was just a possibility I brought up if you really consider not being able to move twice to be so detrimental. In reality though, Reyson will want to be singing to your healers each turn since keeping allies alive is more important than killing enemies, and although he can sing to 4 people in animal form, if he has the Knight Ring I don't see why he can't fly in and sing for both Jill and Ranulf (since both are frontline units) and then fly out.

Err, what the fuck are you saying?  Let's just point out the facts.  First of all, Reyson is getting first dibs on the Knight Ring since it keeps him safe as well as helps him keep up with the team.  If anyone's going to get second dibs, it would be another character that performs a unique action, like a thief.  I would throw a healer out there, but since they have Physic (or actually can move after acting), it's pretty moot.  There's no reason to give it to Ranulf or any other laguz when you already have beorc units that can hit and run and do similar, if not better damage.  The only real advantage would be making it easier for human-form laguz to run behind the units that can still fight. 

Also, seriously, if you have to refresh your healers that much, either you have pretty bad luck, or you're using a few too many laguz =/

And...I really have no clue what you're arguing at the end of that statement (regarding Reyson refreshing Ranulf and Jill), so I'm going to leave that alone...

[Neofox]

Are you being deliberately facetious?  I'm just wondering because I've never said that the laguz suck, just that they aren't the most efficient characters to use, and therefore don't warrant a high rank.

You're saying that laguz aren't very good frontline units, and since that's their primary job, that's more or less saying they're bad units.

None of them have the playing time that Ike has, and none of them make a character as good as an A support with Ike does.Ike is arguably the best unit in the game. In addition, the point is that the laguz can NEVER attack at range, which is definitely a detriment.

As I said, most frontline units will be sticking to melee weapons. Whenever someone uses Brom or Gatrie, they're going to give them a steel or silver lance for defending the front lines with unless a bunch of archers or something are nearby since they'll want the extra power when countering enemies (which for the most part are locked to melee weapons, as well).

If not attacking at range wasn't an issue, and accuracy was, then you'd give all your Paladins swords upon promotion.

I'm not saying accuracy is generally an issue, I'm just saying hand axes and javelins are simply inaccurate. Besides, I'm pretty sure people tend to give paladins axes because of their power, not because of hand-axes. If range was what mattered, people would be giving their paladins bows so they have the option for a reliable ranged weapon at any time.

In addition, you seem to like ignoring the fact that you have the option of forging Hand Axes and Javelins if they're really that bad (which they definitely aren't, but I guess when you're used to using nothing but 80+ Hit weapons, most weapons are horribly inaccurate, right?)

Forging costs money. Yeah, you have a lot of it in this game, but only in large bursts (for example, you won't have too much money to spend until Ranulf gives you a decent amount, then you have to wait until about the time Ike promotes before you get another huge bundle of cash). And again, if you really want to attack enemies at a range you're most likely going to opt for a spellcaster or archer instead.

I have no idea what you're arguing with this point.  The point is, Muarim joins at a point where there are next to no promoted enemies, yet he gets experience like a Level 9 promoted unit.  This, coupled with the fact that you're not getting as much of a trade-off in leveling him up as you are for say Oscar, makes it less efficient to use him than Oscar in this example.  Therefore, he'd be ranked below Oscar on a tier list.

I don't see the issue with the kind of enemies you face by the time you get Muarim, because as I said the majority of your units should either be promoted or in the process of promoting by then. Also, Oscar is arguably one of the best units in the game, so I don't see what's so terrible about not measuring up to him.

It's a waste because they aren't doing anything special for your team!  Calill has a B weapon rank in every relevant magic, so she can do effective damage against every laguz and flying unit in the game.  In addition, she can attack solely at range and even from 10 spaces away, as well as do heavy damage to Generals and the like.  Also, for the record, the only prepromote I feel should be on Top Tier is Titania, so I do think that using it on most of them is a waste when compared to other units.  In Calill's case, it's not, for reasons I've just stated, and for Tanith it's not, since she brings a unique skill, an excellent affinity, plus flying and the ability to actually use magical weapons to decent effect, but I can't really think of anyone else off the top of my head worth giving BEXP to.

Bands can be traded among units at any time, so using them is NEVER a waste since they never get used up. Likewise, if you plan to actually use a unit, there's no reason not to use BEXP on them because that's an easy way to RNG-abuse for better stats. A relatively weak excuse, but I fail to see how using BEXP on a unit you intend to use the whole way through is a bad thing.

No, she's actually quite useable in Hector's and Eliwood's Normal Mode.  Her stats are good enough that she doesn't really need to raise her weapon rank, and she gains experience quick enough to become useful.  If you can use a laguz without the Demi Band, you can easily use Nino.

Nino comes 5 missions before the game's end and despite superior stats, Pent and Erk can do her job just fine without any extra effort. If she were a prepromote with fitting stats she might be worth considering, but she brings nothing unique to the team to be worth it on any mode unless you really like her character. At least laguz have raw stats both on base and on average and (for the most part) require no real favoring to use properly.

And I'm calling bullshit on the primary job thing.  If you only took into account the primary job of a character, then healing utility wouldn't be relevant when ranking Soren and Ilyana.  Please don't ignore advantages just because your laguz friends don't have them.

I'm not saying they aren't advantages, I'm saying that not having them is not a detriment. Ike not being able to heal is not a detriment, it's just an advantage he does not have. He's still an ungodly unit, and not having the ability to heal doesn't hold him back in the least.

Yes, let's waste time when we are trying to finish the game more efficiently...that sounds like a good idea...wait a second...

Then just use a laguz stone or do what I do and time it so they transform when the fight really starts and ends when the action is over.

And also, I find it amusing that you choose to bring up MM when bringing up something in your favor but was so adamant earlier about it being irrelevant.

You were the one who refused to allow Maniac Mode to be considered irrelevant, so I figured I might as well bring it up.

Example: Pack of enemies fights beorc team with weapons.  Worst case scenario is that the weapons break.  Pack of enemies fights laguz team.  Laguz randomly transforms, leaving enemies remaining. 

Once again you claim that laguz transformations are random. This is not FE1/3, you can clearly calculate how long they can stay in animal form, and adjust your strategy accordingly. This ignores the fact nobody (including myself) uses only laguz as their main fighting force.

Even if they get through that part ok, you don't have Olivi Grasses in this game to get the meter back up, so sooner, rather than later, they'll untransform.  Again, just because it's possible to rotate them in and out doesn't mean that that's the most efficient way to do things.

I don't see how it's so terrible. If a frontline unit is taking heavy damage it's not unusual to pull them back for healing while another takes their place.
 

Wow.  If this is the logic being used, then shouldn't the Swordmasters all be higher?  In addition, that would make Ike literally God, since that's about his only issue.

I personally would like the swordmasters placed higher and think that Ike should be sitting on top of the list, but that's just me...

Err, what the fuck are you saying?

As I said, it was entirely a possibility. I didn't say it was the best thing to do.

Also, seriously, if you have to refresh your healers that much, either you have pretty bad luck, or you're using a few too many laguz =/

Actually, the only laguz I use consistantly is Ranulf. I don't really use the others much at all... Though I think you're just lucky, as I've found this game to discourage dodging in general until the end of the game.

And...I really have no clue what you're arguing at the end of that statement (regarding Reyson refreshing Ranulf and Jill), so I'm going to leave that alone...

I was basically saying that being able to move again just to be refreshed isn't that big a deal when Reyson himself also as the ability to fly away after singing thanks to the aforementioned ring.

[UchihaHunter]

You're saying that laguz aren't very good frontline units, and since that's their primary job, that's more or less saying they're bad units.

Find where I said they aren't very good frontline units, and I'll accept that.  All I've said is that you can get equal payoff from beorc on that front, and then some of the beorc can also perform more functions.  That being said, I just went and experimented in Chapter 15, and it wouldn't be too hard to keep them in battle for the majority of the time.  Of course, you'd need them all to get to transforming (or waste those 4 Laguz Stones you get in NA HM), and it would be noticeably more difficult if you had a team full of laguz as opposed to a team that has other beorc to balance it out, but overall it wouldn't be as much of a detriment as I at first thought.

As I said, most frontline units will be sticking to melee weapons. Whenever someone uses Brom or Gatrie, they're going to give them a steel or silver lance for defending the front lines with unless a bunch of archers or something are nearby since they'll want the extra power when countering enemies (which for the most part are locked to melee weapons, as well).

Duly noted, but that's irrelevant.  The point is there are bosses and even generic enemies that you may not want to attack directly, and javelining and such is a good strategy there.  And using those two is a pretty bad example since their speed is shit compared to other characters that I personally would have in the higher tiers.

I'm not saying accuracy is generally an issue, I'm just saying hand axes and javelins are simply inaccurate. Besides, I'm pretty sure people tend to give paladins axes because of their power, not because of hand-axes. If range was what mattered, people would be giving their paladins bows so they have the option for a reliable ranged weapon at any time.

Again, you misunderstand my point.  Having range is an issue, but not the be-all to end all, therefore it's nice to have weapons that have 1-2 range.  The majority of high ranked characters are using lances and axes, not swords and bows for accuracy.  Axes are perfect because most of the enemies use lances, effectively giving them 10+ hit.  Hand axes are quite accurate as long as you aren't doing dumb shit like attacking a swordmaster with one.  Since most of the high tier characters can use lances as well, that situation would hardly ever arrive.  I don't know who you attack with hand axes and javelins, but please stop acting like you're going to have sub 75 hit on most enemies with them.

Forging costs money. Yeah, you have a lot of it in this game, but only in large bursts (for example, you won't have too much money to spend until Ranulf gives you a decent amount, then you have to wait until about the time Ike promotes before you get another huge bundle of cash).

Did you really just say that?  You have ample enough money, especially with the shit you get that you should just sell, such as Arms Scrolls and Statue Frags.  Even without that, you get enough money to manage, provided you're not trying to use the worst characters in the game.

And again, if you really want to attack enemies at a range you're most likely going to opt for a spellcaster or archer instead.

And again, the point is that the option is there, you will use it, and let's not get into the fact that Spellcasters and Archers have less move than Wyvern Lords and Paladins.

I don't see the issue with the kind of enemies you face by the time you get Muarim, because as I said the majority of your units should either be promoted or in the process of promoting by then. Also, Oscar is arguably one of the best units in the game, so I don't see what's so terrible about not measuring up to him.

I just finished playing the two chapters after he joins, and even on HM, they aren't giving much experience.  Even my Level 5 Titania at that point was only getting 5-7 exp for a kill in Chapter 17, and Muarim's getting less than that!

Bands can be traded among units at any time, so using them is NEVER a waste since they never get used up. Likewise, if you plan to actually use a unit, there's no reason not to use BEXP on them because that's an easy way to RNG-abuse for better stats. A relatively weak excuse, but I fail to see how using BEXP on a unit you intend to use the whole way through is a bad thing.

RNG-abuse is irrelevant, so please, let's leave that alone.  I acknowledge what you say on the use of BEXP, but that makes a ton of characters even better, not just laguz.  If we're doing that, they'd still stay in relatively the same spot on the rankings.  And if you're idea of using the bands is going around trading and equipping them to characters when they're about to kill or something like that, it'd be a lot better to have those move-again characters than a laguz that gets stuck after moving ;-)

Nino comes 5 missions before the game's end and despite superior stats, Pent and Erk can do her job just fine without any extra effort. If she were a prepromote with fitting stats she might be worth considering, but she brings nothing unique to the team to be worth it on any mode unless you really like her character. At least laguz have raw stats both on base and on average and (for the most part) require no real favoring to use properly.

The laguz bring nothing unique other than fixed weapons and transformation, so I don't see the point.  If you had some hax laguz that averaged 32 speed or something, then that'd be reason to use them, but you don't.

I'm not saying they aren't advantages, I'm saying that not having them is not a detriment. Ike not being able to heal is not a detriment, it's just an advantage he does not have. He's still an ungodly unit, and not having the ability to heal doesn't hold him back in the least.

Using Ike as an example fails since he's there the whole game, has better battle stats than your laguz will get, gets an infinite use weapon near the end, gives excellent supports, etc. etc. etc.  None of the laguz have that many advantages to warrant a place near the top (...other than you, Reyson...gomen :-()

Then just use a laguz stone or do what I do and time it so they transform when the fight really starts and ends when the action is over.

Which again is something you don't have to worry about doing when not using them.  And again, you get no advantages for that, other than not buying weapons.  That would be valid if you had no money or could buy a ton of Laguz Stones, like in FE10, but this is FE9.

You were the one who refused to allow Maniac Mode to be considered irrelevant, so I figured I might as well bring it up.

Actually, I had let it go >_>

Once again you claim that laguz transformations are random. This is not FE1/3, you can clearly calculate how long they can stay in animal form, and adjust your strategy accordingly. This ignores the fact nobody (including myself) uses only laguz as their main fighting force.

Sigh.  The random part isn't the transformations, it's what units will attack what.  I've seen the AI do some pretty stupid things that had no chance of working, so I, for one, can't predict what they'll do at all times.  Of course, it would appear you're some very high level strategist or something, so maybe you can [/sarcasm]

I don't see how it's so terrible. If a frontline unit is taking heavy damage it's not unusual to pull them back for healing while another takes their place.

Maybe this is just how I play personally, but my units pretty much never take heavy damage because they dodge the shit, due to good stats and supports.

I personally would like the swordmasters placed higher and think that Ike should be sitting on top of the list, but that's just me...

I should hope you would, otherwise you'd be quite the hypocrite.

As I said, it was entirely a possibility. I didn't say it was the best thing to do.

It's possible for me to do 2-man and 3-man teams for the entire game.  It's not the best thing to do, but I can.  See my point?

Actually, the only laguz I use consistantly is Ranulf. I don't really use the others much at all... Though I think you're just lucky, as I've found this game to discourage dodging in general until the end of the game.

I'll take this one, since personal experience isn't the ultimate, but of course, building teams with good supports lowers the need for luck.

I was basically saying that being able to move again just to be refreshed isn't that big a deal when Reyson himself also as the ability to fly away after singing thanks to the aforementioned ring.

But...then Ranulf wouldn't have it...the point with the ring is that it allows Reyson to fall back if he needs to, as well as catch up.  Giving it to Ranulf would be fail, and (again, this could be because of my teamstyle) I tend to kill enemies and move forward, so using any unit without move-again is a bit of a downer (I'm looking at you, Ike)

[quanta]

Even looking at the time of joining, if we assume Jill is at 20/9, you've got...

Jill

41/21/21/20/20/9/11

With Mist A and a Steel Axe

33 Atk, 23 Def, 118 Hit, 58 Avoid, 20 AS

against...

Ranulf

46/19/17/17/17/6/13 --> 46/25/21/20/22/9/13

33 Atk, 22 Def, 144 Hit, 53 Avoid, 20 AS

No matter which mode you use in this situation, Jill and her axe are doing comparative to Ranulf, and that's with a Steel Axe.  Considering supports and the shitacular Mt of Laguz weapons in this game, she doesn't need Silver weapons to equal Ranulf.

Eh, I forgot the support and she ties him at base level with steel. Still, she's god tier, so it's really quite a favorable comparison for a mid tier to pack these raw stats. Especially when you remember that his growths are better and he hasn't gotten any supports yet, so later he actually gets more ridiculous. Ranulf also didn't have to endure a single chapter underleveled.

The lack of range and experience problems though or "not being unique" aren't really big enough problems to hold something back from high tier. From god tier, maybe, but not high. Especially since the uniqueness one is bullshit. Who cares if Calill does effective damage to laguz and fliers? Wind doing effective damage doesn't matter because wind magic has shitty might anyways, beast laguz aren't that tough, Elthunder and Elfire are D rank tomes so any sage works for having effective might, and you get very few long range tomes. Ranulf having huge HP, defense, and dodge is worth so much more than effective damage and siege tomes combined. Ranulf having 9 move transformed is also more useful than effective damage and siege tomes, and it doesn't matter how many other characters can do that, because Calill can't.

Really, the primary issues that should determine whether better laguz go in mid or high tier are transformation and joining time (Ranulf's is late, so he can't surpass mid).

[UchihaHunter]

Eh, I forgot the support and she ties him at base level with steel. Still, she's god tier, so it's really quite a favorable comparison for a mid tier to pack these raw stats. Especially when you remember that his growths are better and he hasn't gotten any supports yet, so later he actually gets more ridiculous. Ranulf also didn't have to endure a single chapter underleveled.

...I already showed the stats later with the supports, so actually, he doesn't really get more ridiculous...

It is true that Ranulf never has to be underleveled, but his lack of availability ties into that, which you stated later.  In addition, I didn't pick Jill, so I dunno why people are complaining about it >>.

The lack of range and experience problems though or "not being unique" aren't really big enough problems to hold something back from high tier. From god tier, maybe, but not high. Especially since the uniqueness one is bullshit. Who cares if Calill does effective damage to laguz and fliers? Wind doing effective damage doesn't matter because wind magic has shitty might anyways, beast laguz aren't that tough, Elthunder and Elfire are D rank tomes so any sage works for having effective might, and you get very few long range tomes. Ranulf having huge HP, defense, and dodge is worth so much more than effective damage and siege tomes combined. Ranulf having 9 move transformed is also more useful than effective damage and siege tomes, and it doesn't matter how many other characters can do that, because Calill can't.

I don't remember ever saying I'd put Ranulf under Calill, so if you can show me that, then I'll take that point as valid >_>

...although, thinking on it more, I'm not sure where I'd put them in relation to each other...

Point taken on you not getting many siege tomes, but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on the whole HP, Def, and Dodge being worth more than magical, effective, and siege tomes combined (although you're also ignoring that she nearly never has to attack directly, making the majority of that not as relevant as for a frontliner-type like Ranulf).  And as for the uniqueness being bullshit thing, you can go ahead and have fun having Ranulf battle armors, Wyverns, and laguz (most of which he isn't doubling), and tell me how that goes.  He doesn't have the Atk or the Speed to reliably one-round those units, while Calill typically can double and kill Wyverns and Armors (Wyverns definitely, Armors iirc), and do more damage to Laguz than Ranulf can. 

Ranulf has overkill HP and good defense/dodge, but you have other people with similar (or better) durability, slayer weapons, longer playing time, move-after-acting, and (in some cases) flying.  All of those, combined with the fact that they can attack from Turn 1 if necessary, keep them on God tier or at the very least, above Ranulf. 

Really, the primary issues that should determine whether better laguz go in mid or high tier are transformation and joining time (Ranulf's is late, so he can't surpass mid).

I'll agree partly with this, but there are other issues that keep Ranulf from High that I've already stated.

[quanta]

Point taken on you not getting many siege tomes, but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on the whole HP, Def, and Dodge being worth more than magical, effective, and siege tomes combined (although you're also ignoring that she nearly never has to attack directly, making the majority of that not as relevant as for a frontliner-type like Ranulf).  And as for the uniqueness being bullshit thing, you can go ahead and have fun having Ranulf battle armors, Wyverns, and laguz (most of which he isn't doubling), and tell me how that goes.  He doesn't have the Atk or the Speed to reliably one-round those units, while Calill typically can double and kill Wyverns and Armors (Wyverns definitely, Armors iirc), and do more damage to Laguz than Ranulf can.

Said effective damage and siege, not magical damage too. But if Ranulf isn't doubling... neither is Calill, so for one rounding you've got to assume that they're both doubling.

And Ranulf battling Wyverns, Armors, and Laguz has pretty predictable results. He doesn't die unless you screw up pretty badly, and he gets counterattacks if he gets attacked just like any frontliner. Unless not counterattacking on your turn is suddenly no longer a disadvantage, Calill's range is partially balanced out by the fact she can't risk eating a couple spears to the face.

BTW, uniqueness is still bullshit, because basically any mage can do most of that (barring using any siege tome, which is lulzy anyways because you don't get that many and they're not that awesome anyways), and you aren't gonna split your army 50/50 between mages and things that can actually tank, so while Calill has less direct competition for slots in a chapter, there is also less space to for mages than for frontliners.

Ranulf has overkill HP and good defense/dodge, but you have other people with similar (or better) durability

Better durability? Brom or Gatrie can just scrape a win with a knight ward, but only one of 'em gets it, and their mobility blows. Ike packs similar durability, and Ike with Ragnell wins, but well... lol Ike with Ragnell beats everyone but Laguz kings durability wise. Jill starts slightly ahead, then eventually they about tie if Jill has A Mist/ B Haar and Ranulf has B Ike. Kieran, Oscar and Makalov vary between somewhat more durable than Ranulf when he joins and somewhat less durable, to being ties later at best.

So... basically everyone with similar durability is God tier level or has crappy mobility and needs an item to tie. Ummm... yeah.

But anyways, this is distracting from Muarim, who actually has a shot at high since he has decent joining time.

[UchihaHunter]

Said effective damage and siege, not magical damage too. But if Ranulf isn't doubling... neither is Calill, so for one rounding you've got to assume that they're both doubling.

Re-read what I wrote, then come back to me...actually, I'll save you the effort.  Calill and Ranulf are both doubling Armors and Wyverns, but the one with the higher chance of killing is definitely Calill.  That was the point.  And yea, I added in the magical damage since you seemed to forget that in your post, or maybe I was just reading it wrong

And Ranulf battling Wyverns, Armors, and Laguz has pretty predictable results. He doesn't die unless you screw up pretty badly, and he gets counterattacks if he gets attacked just like any frontliner. Unless not counterattacking on your turn is suddenly no longer a disadvantage, Calill's range is partially balanced out by the fact she can't risk eating a couple spears to the face.

You and I both know that opponents that wield spears generally have low enough hit that they can dodge, and furthermore, even if we ignore that (since it is pretty iffy, I'll concede), if you're using Ranulf or any other laguz, they'll definitely attack them with said spear instead of Calill.  There are very few situations where you'd get your mage attacked at range in this game.

BTW, uniqueness is still bullshit, because basically any mage can do most of that (barring using any siege tome, which is lulzy anyways because you don't get that many and they're not that awesome anyways), and you aren't gonna split your army 50/50 between mages and things that can actually tank, so while Calill has less direct competition for slots in a chapter, there is also less space to for mages than for frontliners.

Maybe I need to explain uniqueness to you.  At the point in the game at which Ranulf joins, he brings nothing that your team needs at the time.  You have Jill, Oscar, Kieran, Titania, Makalov, and Astrid, all of whom have better mobility, all of whom can attack at all times, all of whom have a range option.  Do you follow this so far?  If so, then we continue to the fact that you already have some (2?) Occults at this point, so any two Paladins can have Sol.  Add onto that the fact that they will all have supports, and you have a multitude of units that do Ranulf's job better than he does from the start, and he doesn't ever catch up.  I already showed you with Jill that he starts off behind and stays behind, if you would like, I can show you that for each of the units here with the exception of Titania and Astrid, I guess, but putting into account Titania's playing time and Astrid's Paragon, they're still more useful than Ranulf.

Let me explain Calill's uniqueness at this point.  When you get Calill, you have Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod.  Soren and Ilyana have no problem with weapon levels in their specific specialties or even being at a comparable level to Calill when she joins your army.  (I'm not really going to argue Tormod since he comes later than Astrid and without Paragon...it's definitely a chore to use him, and the only thing he brings that's worth training him for is Celerity.) However, when you get Calill, you get someone that can nuke anyone that takes effective damage from the start, auto Nihil, and with the high weapon ranks, you can mold her into any type of sage that you need on the team at that point.  Let me go further now.  Calill also gets very good stats compared to your other magical characters.  She starts off on par with them, taking into account AS loss from tomes for Soren and an overall lack of speed for Ilyana, and she keeps getting better.  By 20/15, she's got the same Mag as Ilyana with 3 more speed, and 3 less Mag and 1 less Spd than Soren, but around 6 more strength, so she can use better tomes for better Atk than Soren.  For her, it is entirely relevant to use her when she joins since sages are always good to have around and she is quite good and gets better after joining.  Ranulf starts off fine, but definitely tapers off to the point that you're using other mediocre units to keep him decent (Mordecai, lol)

Better durability? Brom or Gatrie can just scrape a win with a knight ward, but only one of 'em gets it, and their mobility blows. Ike packs similar durability, and Ike with Ragnell wins, but well... lol Ike with Ragnell beats everyone but Laguz kings durability wise. Jill starts slightly ahead, then eventually they about tie if Jill has A Mist/ B Haar and Ranulf has B Ike. Kieran, Oscar and Makalov vary between somewhat more durable than Ranulf when he joins and somewhat less durable, to being ties later at best.

Perhaps we have different definitions of durability.  If I have units that have comparable HP, Def, and Res, then I have to factor in Avoid.  At that point alone, Ranulf starts getting blown out of the water.  I've already shown earlier that Jill has very comparable durability to Ranulf, but comparing him to Oscar, Kieran, Ike or Makalov is not going to work at all, simply because all 4 of those characters have Sol (lol Aether),  and all 4 can have it at the same time even.  Ranulf has excellent durability when you take just his personal durability and compare it to other units.  When you add in the additional factors of using said units, though, his durability is quite average. 

So... basically everyone with similar durability is God tier level or has crappy mobility and needs an item to tie. Ummm... yeah.

This is such a bullshit statement.  Basically, you make like 5 tiers so that you can throw good units on God tier and keep Ranulf on High?  Face it, the guy is only mid, no matter how many tiers you make.

But anyways, this is distracting from Muarim, who actually has a shot at high since he has decent joining time.

Really?  Using Muarim means you have to use another two meh units, Zihark and Largo, for him to have any sort of relevance to your team on HM.  His stats are worse than Ranulf's and again, he brings little more to the team than a Jeigan-esque unit at a time when your units are already promoting. 

[quanta]

Perhaps we have different definitions of durability.  If I have units that have comparable HP, Def, and Res, then I have to factor in Avoid.  At that point alone, Ranulf starts getting blown out of the water.  I've already shown earlier that Jill has very comparable durability to Ranulf, but comparing him to Oscar, Kieran, Ike or Makalov is not going to work at all, simply because all 4 of those characters have Sol (lol Aether),  and all 4 can have it at the same time even.  Ranulf has excellent durability when you take just his personal durability and compare it to other units.  When you add in the additional factors of using said units, though, his durability is quite average.

What? He doesn't lose avoid by much to any of those h4x characters but like... Oscar. And he wins in HP and Def anyways. He also gains his B support with Ike fast. (Is he locked as a character in 23? I forget. If so, its even more in his favor).

This is such a bullshit statement.  Basically, you make like 5 tiers so that you can throw good units on God tier and keep Ranulf on High?  Face it, the guy is only mid, no matter how many tiers you make.

Never said he's high tier. Joining time sux too much. Just said that everyone with better or the same durability who has any mobility is basically god tier (Oscar, Kieran, Makalov, Jill).

[UchihaHunter]

Makalov being God tier is news to me.

Anyway, unless you have Ike supportless until you get Ranulf (lol, Titania, Soren, Oscar), then he's losing in avoid to everyone I mentioned.  Also, he's not locked in 23, as I never use him >_>

...although, even if he was, that'd make more of a case for him not being so good, since you're fighting enemies straight off the bat in that chapter anyway, and he starts off untransformed.   

[Lord Ephidel]

Horrible tier list IMO. Nuff said.

[Mage Knight 404]

Horrible tier list IMO. Nuff said.

Thanks for your opinion, but you've necroposted. Again. You really need to read the rules here.

Locked.