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The Manual of FESS Prowess - This is mandatory reading for everyone!
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Author Topic: Balancing Fire Emblem  (Read 3277 times)
Alondite
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« on: October 18, 2008, 03:39:35 PM »

  Ok, so it's pretty common knowledge that characters in Fire Emblem (in general, not one game) are not balanced, or even close to being balanced.  That's not the only issue however.  Weapons aren't balanced, and some weapons are completely pointless (long range magic for one...) giving specific weapons advantages.  Also, classes. Some classes are just more useful than others. My question is, how would one balance Fire Emblem? I for one think that the games would be much more enjoyable if you could use characters you want (as opposed to "good" characters) and not be at a disadvantage.

Firstly, characters. In general, a character's base stats should be comparable to the rest of your characters upon recruitment.  If not, then those characters should have some advantage/disadvantage in terms of growths.  All unpromoted characters (save Lords and other special case characters) should share an equal average. The same holds true for pre-promotes.  Pre-promotes will likely be a bit stronger than your other characters, but for their level, their bases will be low.  To compensate for that, they get better growths (and like unpromotes, share an average), yet lower high-level stats to compensate for their early game usefulness. 

Now, for stats.  What do you prefer, a character with good Res, or good Str/Mag? I think we all know the answer to that.  How do we make every stat equally useful?  Well one way to make Res useful: more magic users, or make magic stronger.  That's an option.  How do we make Skill and Luck useful? Make high-powered weapons inaccurate, meaning that fast characters will likely never get touched by them, and a good skill/luck stat is required to use them effectively.  This could also balance Speed and Defense too.  Usually, high Def means less average damage than high Spd, so, how do we fix that? For one, make weapons weaker. This means that low Def units won't have massive chunks of HP lost from attacks (and high Def units will take less, I know). But also decreasing Acc of weapons means that high Spd (usually low Def) units will barely ever be touched by the strongest weapons, which should bring average damage much closer.

Now for classes. Classes are so unbalanced it's ridiculous. Look at General caps, and in FE:SS, they can use the entire weapon triangle AND have a pretty good skill to boot. They also have ridiculously unbalanced stats. That 1 point Movement disadvantage to other ground units does not justify that.  So, balance classes. Each class (save special classes) have the same cap average. If you can make all stats of (roughly) equal worth, than this should work out.

That's the start of what I have to say, but I still have some other ideas, and I'm sure there's a lot that I'm missing altogether. I could also be very wrong about every point I made, I don't know. Share your thoughts.
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 07:52:17 PM »

Paladin class basically beats out Generals, as do Great Knights.  Their move is ridiculous, and Great Knights have more move + the same kinds of weapons they have access to.  If you can't catch up to the main group, it's harder to be broken because you're lagging behind.

Wasn't there decent class balance in FE8 anyway?
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 09:56:13 PM »

Generals have better stats, and a skill. Either give them boots, or keep the group with them if you don't want them lagging.  What about SMs and Falco Knights? Low smeans they are doing next to no damage, and because of their pathetic defence (and not enough AVO to make up for it) they take tons of damage too. 

Imagine a SM with 27 Str, combined with 30 Spd and that crit boost.  Pretty awesome right? How do you balance that? Well, crap defenses. High Def tanks? Crap speed; to an even greater extent than they are.  A SM stands virtually no chance against anything but axe users...weak ones, and axe users aren't exactly plentiful, which brings us to another point: there are a ton of lance users, which gives axes even MORE of an advantage.  Warrios, Berserkers, Generals...they are all powerful classes already, and an advantage like that just makes them too good. 

Take Berserkers. They are fast, strong, have reasonably good defense and HP, plus a critical boost. Now consider the fact that lance users are most common, and they become broken.  Hector's Great Lord is another good example of broken, we won't even go there.

On any given playthough, some characters are just useless, and it's the same characters every time (Marisa? Yeah, she sucks. Gerik? Not so much.). It's not always because of the character.  Marisa is useless because she dies in 2 hits and has no strength.  I don't care how well she can dodge, because if she can't do any damage, and practically dies when she inevitably gets hit then she's not worth it.  What would make her useful? More Str and better Avo (or less enemy Acc) would be a good start. 

Anyway, the goal here is to identify the problems and look for a way to fix them.  Your post addressed an issue with my point, but didn't present anything in itself. It would be more helpful if it added something productive to the mix, so if you have can say anything that can do that,then by all means do so.
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2008, 10:08:04 PM »

Quote
Either give them boots, or keep the group with them if you don't want them lagging.
Of course they'd do well after a boost, but also giving Boots to said Paladin makes said Paladin a lot faster on their feet.  Or hell even a Great Knight for the Movement loss from the Cavalier.

Why lag the group with them if the rest of the group can go a lot faster in a turn and do much more anyway?  I'm sure the high stats and weapon usability is balanced by the lack of move, completely; in fact I'd rather go for the Great Knight than General...  I dunno where I'm going with this, it's just thinking out loud.

Anyways I swear FE8 was pretty balanced as far as classes go.  It was either that or FE7, I can't really recall...  I think balance deals more with making everyone immediately usable as opposed to characters being about equal in worth.  So this makes FE7-9 pretty balanced, 6 and 10 kinda iffy, 5 really unbalanced, 4 iffy, and 1/3/DS really unbalanced.


Finally, Archers need an improvement.  What was done for them in FE10 was a delight, though; Crossbows, Double Bow, and 2-3 range.

Quote
Hector's Great Lord is another good example of broken, we won't even go there.
How so?
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2008, 10:12:14 PM »

How so?

==His Con is high, he can get an S in swords, allowing him to be one of the better wielders of the Royal Sword, and he can use the Armads. He can respond to any enemy in the triangle proficiently, and his added Defense from Armads makes him a real beast.

At least, that's what I always found ultra useful about him.
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Mr. Sirius
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2008, 12:23:42 AM »

  Ok, so it's pretty common knowledge that characters in Fire Emblem (in general, not one game) are not balanced, or even close to being balanced.  That's not the only issue however.  Weapons aren't balanced, and some weapons are completely pointless (long range magic for one...) giving specific weapons advantages.  Also, classes. Some classes are just more useful than others. My question is, how would one balance Fire Emblem? I for one think that the games would be much more enjoyable if you could use characters you want (as opposed to "good" characters) and not be at a disadvantage.

Firstly, characters. In general, a character's base stats should be comparable to the rest of your characters upon recruitment.  If not, then those characters should have some advantage/disadvantage in terms of growths.  All unpromoted characters (save Lords and other special case characters) should share an equal average. The same holds true for pre-promotes.  Pre-promotes will likely be a bit stronger than your other characters, but for their level, their bases will be low.  To compensate for that, they get better growths (and like unpromotes, share an average), yet lower high-level stats to compensate for their early game usefulness. 

Now, for stats.  What do you prefer, a character with good Res, or good Str/Mag? I think we all know the answer to that.  How do we make every stat equally useful?  Well one way to make Res useful: more magic users, or make magic stronger.  That's an option.  How do we make Skill and Luck useful? Make high-powered weapons inaccurate, meaning that fast characters will likely never get touched by them, and a good skill/luck stat is required to use them effectively.  This could also balance Speed and Defense too.  Usually, high Def means less average damage than high Spd, so, how do we fix that? For one, make weapons weaker. This means that low Def units won't have massive chunks of HP lost from attacks (and high Def units will take less, I know). But also decreasing Acc of weapons means that high Spd (usually low Def) units will barely ever be touched by the strongest weapons, which should bring average damage much closer.

Now for classes. Classes are so unbalanced it's ridiculous. Look at General caps, and in FE:SS, they can use the entire weapon triangle AND have a pretty good skill to boot. They also have ridiculously unbalanced stats. That 1 point Movement disadvantage to other ground units does not justify that.  So, balance classes. Each class (save special classes) have the same cap average. If you can make all stats of (roughly) equal worth, than this should work out.

That's the start of what I have to say, but I still have some other ideas, and I'm sure there's a lot that I'm missing altogether. I could also be very wrong about every point I made, I don't know. Share your thoughts.

As one of the few balancers currently working on FETO, let me share what I've found.

I think the first question is, what are you balancing it for?  Campaigns balance the stats completely different than PvP-type battles, as Campaigns have you facing many but weaker enemies, while PvP-type battles have you facing similar in number and similar in strength.
I'm going to assume the latter for convenience.

Now, what order do you want to balance them in?  Here are my suggestions as to their order, and I describe each and give general guidelines below.


Step 1: Statistics
In regards to stats, you have to set where they are in relation to each other, and their effects.  A good (but not always accurate) way to test this is to increase a stat by 1 and see how much it affects a unit.
If done properly via that method, you'll get something like this:

(FEGBA)
SPD >> CON > STR/MAG >> SKL > RES > LCK > DEF >>>> HP

(FEDuality)
STR >> SPD >>> SKL > MAG >> LCK > DEF = RES >>> HP >> CON

You have to then change the stats with little to or no relation to the others, unless necessary.
Fixing them is no easy chore.  I finished two days ago how POW (FETO's combined STR/MAG stat) should be nerfed, and while SPD/LCK were determined two weeks before that, I'm finding that it's no easy task to balance HP.

Now, don't expect your stat chart to look like this once you're done:
HP = STR = MAG = SKL = DEF = RES = LCK = CON = MOV
Frankly, don't even try for this.  It doesn't work unless you completely rework the game.  In my supposedly dead RP, FE8x, I changed most of the mechanics as well as formulae for this to be even possible.  Like, for example, to make DEF and RES equal, I changed up statuses to be Physical and Magical, and its respective stat also gave an increased chance to avoid their respective statuses.  HP was buffed by doubling it whenever a chance for the unit to permanently die is in, and HP also increased avoid to both statuses (though in smaller amounts, of course).

A good goal is to get something like this:
STR/MAG > SKL = SPD > RES = LCK > DEF >> HP
It doesn't change too many things in terms of order but it sets the record straight.

I can promise you, about half of all the character-related balancing problems comes from the stats themselves, and you'd have saved yourself a lot of work by doing this step first.


Step 2: Classes
Now, you get to work on the classes.  (As a sidenote, if you're working on characters instead of classes, you miss out on interactions between Player and Enemy, something really crucial to balance in Campaign mode.)  Classes are just that: individual titles that determine a unit's growth, stats, and potential outcomes, as well as maximums.

One trick that I've found for balancing classes is to make a role chart.  Define what roles (yes, roles, if a unit plays 1 role, it's garbage) a unit can play first.  That allows you to form the skeleton of a unit (more on that later).  Once you've done that, type-match the roles to each other.  The general rule is that Offensive beats Balanced beats Defensive beats Offensive (the Triangle of Styles [It's not really a triangle indepth, but it's an easy term that's FE-related]).  Of course, there's the odd "reaver"-like role that reverses it.

Once you know how the roles match up, you now need to weight it in favor of the units that are weaker than the rest.  And don't just count the number of wins in style vs. the other styles.   Sometimes certain styles have more weight than the others.  If rushing is a really common tool, then anything that wins against horses will be weighted more than anything that wins against armours.

From there, you can start to develop the skeleton of the class.  Determine the amount of BST (Base Stats) that a unit should have, and go a bit below that; 6-8 is a good number range to start on.  Also determine the growths the class will have, and once again, go a bit below that; 30-50% is a good area of growths to work with.  Once you've completed the Skeleton, congratulations, you've just made an allied unit (Green).  Increase the base slightly, and growths in certain areas (preferably either the base or the growths go over the amount you've set for that area), and now you've made an enemy unit (Red).  Now set them up to match the amounts you set previously and you have your Blue unit.

The BST and Growths that I used for FE8x's starting players are as follows:
1st Tier (Trainee) - 35 BST, 250% Growths
2nd Tier (Standard) - 50 BST, 300% Growths
3rd Tier (Promoted) - 105 BST, 350% Growths
4th Tier (Mastered) - 170 BST, 400% Growths

For Enemy Units, I gave them this.
2nd Tier - 55 BST, 290% Growths

I then used the standard level up system and leveled them from there.  (For obvious reasons, try NOT to put non-recruitable Trainee units into the opponent's side.  Bad idea all around, especially if it's on a regular basis.)

For Allied Units, I gave them this.
2nd Tier - 48 BST, 295% Growths

This makes them weaker than the enemies, but not so much to the point they're like Ostia Knights...yeah.

Once you've figured this out, and done every single class in that order, repeating from the beginning of Step 2, check again.  Maybe during the transition, some units have changed roles.  You will want to fix those up before you continue.


Step 3: Items
Now, for the easiest section.  Items.  And yes, they are the easiest.  Why?  Weapons add MT, Hit, WT, Crit, and Range to your units.  They are just an extension of the character's stats.

The biggest problem most people face when balancing these is following tradition by typically going the typical FE-route style of adding 1 MT and dropping 5 Hit (and possibly repeating that adding/dropping, even more than once) to the next weapon.

I think the question to be asked is not "how can this be fixed" but "why is it like that"?  The answer is simple: your units need different options.  The weapons are always set for Campaigns, and the reason for this is that with static stat bases and random growth level ups, there is no real variance in attacks outside of fluctuating MT and Hit (Adding your own input into stats, like in a PvP game, adds a whole other level I don't want to discuss in length here).

Once again, focus on the item's role, and how it is meant to be used.  Focus on the higher-up weapons, and challenge yourself to think up different scenarios, and really discover for yourself if a double nerf (WT + Hit drop) is worth the MT increase.  I think, finding that on your own will allow you to easily complete this section without any further guidance.  But if you still need help, there's a few tips I'll give you.

- Don't be so hasty as to dismiss other ideas.  Reavers do this when they reverse the cost structure, but that's a small effect.
- Hold a weapon class (such as Iron or Steel) as being the foundation of that weapon type, and keep that held weapon class the same throughout all the weapons (Staves not included, as they're another whole can of worms).
- Interact with classes to find out what works and what doesn't.

That leaves you with the non-weapons.  Status healing, HP healing, Stat Boosters.  They all start coming into play.  And this is where I back up, because I don't believe that they should be in a PvP game (in Campaign and random growths, all are needed, though I'd easily get rid of any MOV+ stat bonuses and any CON+ stat bonuses, as you will find that you will spend about a month minimum per item just getting it to work on the classes, never mind the layers to come).

Once you're done that, we can move onto Step 4.


Step 4: Terrain
Yes, terrain.  Flyers take advantage of mountainous region, and Horses enjoy the open plains.  What's the unit's MOV really worth?

There's not a lot I can say here, because this is out of my realm, but I have to say one thing: Don't forget about the Desert tiles.  They're not that common but Mages like that terrain.


Once you get past here, you would have spent a lot of time and effort into balancing.  You may start to realize that it's not as easy as it sounds, as once you get past Step 4, we repeat Step 1, adding one new layer (in this case, effectual stats based on maps for Part 1) each time.  Once you get past it again, add another layer, and so on, until all four steps have overlapped with each other.

Only then can you consider it theoretically balanced.
Yes, that means there needs to be actual testing involved as well, from start to finish, or from any point in-between (a la Eliwood mode w/o Lyn mode).



So yeah, that's what I have to help you with.  Happy, uh, balancing.
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2008, 02:51:23 AM »

BoNam'oLafs

 
What is this about balancing lately? This is Fire Emblem not some multiplayer fighting game.
There's no need to balance ANYTHING. As long as everyone and everything is usable, it's fine (See: FE7-10). Just pick the good and/or bad stuff however you like.
You're talking like it's a flaw to not balance it but it might as well be a benefit. It's less boring this way.
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2008, 06:05:52 AM »

As far as balancing characters, I think FE9 has the right idea.(well, I haven't played FE10, so maybe there's more balance there). In FE9, everyone is useable. Obviously, tough, there are always going to be characters that are going to be better, due to factors such as joining condition and supports, so the best that can be done, IMO, is to make every character good. Of course, FE9 isn't perfect at this, some characters could use a boost (Mia, Rolf, etc) while the paladin class is broken. Perfect balance between characters can only be achieved in something like FETO, with no campaign thus eliminating factors such as the mentioned above.
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2008, 06:32:40 AM »

==His Con is high, he can get an S in swords, allowing him to be one of the better wielders of the Royal Sword, and he can use the Armads. He can respond to any enemy in the triangle proficiently, and his added Defense from Armads makes him a real beast.
Depends on which mode you're talking about here.

His promotion time is decent in EHM (Heaven Seal) but is pricey on funds, however it's pretty bad in HHM.  His Speed is somewhat average as well...  also I've found Swords useless on him because I've always stuck to axes.  Stronger and less pricey.
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2008, 02:57:48 PM »

Depends on which mode you're talking about here.

His promotion time is decent in EHM (Heaven Seal) but is pricey on funds, however it's pretty bad in HHM.  His Speed is somewhat average as well...  also I've found Swords useless on him because I've always stuck to axes.  Stronger and less pricey.

==His speed's high enough to keep from getting double-hit from most people unless he uses Armads, at which point their double attack usually means absolutely nothing. His Strength is freaking gigantic, his Defense is through the roof, and the fact that he can use Swords is definitely something to look at, because there's not much reason to S in Axes since he can used Armads regardless.

The fact stands that he's one of the best units I've ever had period, and almost definitely the best unit in FE7.
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2008, 03:36:16 PM »

People still consider Hector excellent? O_o

He's great early-game, then becomes worthless for most the games due to ramming level 20. By the time Hector promotes, everyone will have surpassed him. Also, Swords are virtually useless on Hector, since the Steel Sword he can equip is much weaker than Silver Axes he can use upon promotion. Though having a free promotion is always a benefit. Just promoting so late is a serious detriment.

Easy way to balance Fire Emblem. Increase difficulty, bring back dismount, and give Archers a melee weapon upon promotion.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 03:38:37 PM by Swordsalmon » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2008, 04:43:32 PM »

He can hold his own at level 20, though.  HHM's enemies kinda blow, after all.  He's just not doing as well as others are.

==His speed's high enough to keep from getting double-hit
Yet he's not double attacking himself.  His Strength and Defense are fine and such, but it's stagnant for about a quarter of the game that he doesn't get much better or worse, and he's getting surpassed...  he's not helping EXP rank either.
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2008, 05:13:53 PM »

He can hold his own at level 20, though.  HHM's enemies kinda blow, after all.  He's just not doing as well as others are.

He can hold his own somewhat, but Hector's low AS reduces Combat and of course, Experience.
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2008, 06:17:15 AM »

There have been a lot of long posts in here with numerous points I cannot contend with (in particular Mr. Sirius post; I don't have the experiance of trying to change and re-balance the game).

Fire Emblem is primarily a single-player game. By that nature it will be unbalanced. Why? If enemies are equal strength to yourself how will you win? With great difficulty. If you were to ake Fire Emblme perfectly balanced you would end up with Advance Wars.

Multiplayer games like fighting games needs to be balanced so every character really has a chance of beating the other. Fire Emblems multiplayer is practically a bolt-on extra.

So really with Fire Emblem it will be unbalanced but the degree of unbalance is the important factor. Having a few completely and utterly broken units and weapons will make the game become very stale. Stopping classes being broken by movement problems, stat problems are good ways out. So would weapon weaknesses if enemies were ever armed with the things (it would be interesting if the AI could somehow assess your army and deploy and call appropiate reinforcements...say you're all paladins, all of a sudden you'll find the enemy forces with Horse slayers on hand).

Also, a thing to bear in mind is not everything the palyer gets will be useful to them. Take long range magic. In the hands of a player it is usually useless while in the enemies hand it is a pest. Why is ths? The enemy is usually on the defence and long range a magic is a good way to slow the players advance. You, on the other hand ae rarely on the defensive and its not about slowing enemies advance as they'll kamikaze into anything.
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2008, 09:16:51 AM »

It's imbalance that makes games more interesting in my opinion (probably why FE3 is my favorite). It gives you more options when playing, want an easier play through? Use the good units, or you can also make a challenge by using the suck ones.


Quote
Also, a thing to bear in mind is not everything the palyer gets will be useful to them. Take long range magic. In the hands of a player it is usually useless while in the enemies hand it is a pest. Why is ths? The enemy is usually on the defence and long range a magic is a good way to slow the players advance. You, on the other hand ae rarely on the defensive and its not about slowing enemies advance as they'll kamikaze into anything.

How you put it to use

I found it's rather handy killing those annoying units that would slow you down before you reach them. As well as those annoying thieves who run around stealing stuff.
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2008, 10:27:46 AM »

I don't mind the imbalance myself. In fact, I prefer it. I don't like the FE3 style where some units owns and others are complete crap, but some variation I like. I think FE7 had it right in terms of balance. Although there could've been some more units as good as in FE9. I don't know, with strength ranging from EXTREMELY POWERFUL to bad-ish.

Or something.
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 01:25:20 PM »

How you put it to use

I found it's rather handy killing those annoying units that would slow you down before you reach them. As well as those annoying thieves who run around stealing stuff.

On long-range magic, I generally *don't* use them, but Thunderstorm on Nino with Fala's Might abuse and Hammerne gets rid of all but the lowermost two long-rangers in the second part of the Final chapter in FE7. That tends to be her last few level-ups for me, saving other experience for other units if they aren't all maxed out...
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2008, 01:30:24 PM »

It's imbalance that makes games more interesting in my opinion (probably why FE3 is my favorite). It gives you more options when playing, want an easier play through? Use the good units, or you can also make a challenge by using the suck ones.
I disagree. More suck units doesn't give you more options, rather, they give you less. There's a difference between inferior units and useless units, and while ones like Sothe and Elincia in FE9 are inferior, they can be used and you'll be just fine. With ones like Jeigan and Boa in FE1/3, you're better off just leaving an empty slot in your team rather than trying to use them since they simply won't be able to stand up to the enemies near the end of the game.

It's not that they're just hard to work with like say, Yodel in FE6, it's that they're impossible to use.
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2008, 10:29:21 PM »

Alot of classes need to be fine tuned, depending on the game. All too often we have Generals with enough speed to make them titans, but our swordmasters are fail because they only need half the speed they get to dodge the enemies and can't do any damage, and while Warriors indeed do have epic HP and Str.... Generals do it, with defense to boot, and knights are much easier to level up than axe fighters. And Archers haven't been useful since like... FE4.

Then come the mounted units, whose superior movement hampers their caps. What kind of crummy balence is that? mountees shouldn't even have similar stats to infantry because they're on a spoony horse.

And then you get character-exclusive problems. Heros on the GBA aren't bad themselves... but Raven in FE7 is a horrible merc. Low con, low defense, he's a swordmaster in hero's clothing. Same with Guy, who's stupidly high 70 speed growth is better suited for a thief, leaving Karel as the only worthwhile swordsman (not counting Lyn).

Then you got weapon using balences. Most units can use swords, some lances, almost none axes. In general, theres...

Swords: Mercs, Myrmidons, Lords, Cavaliers.
Lances: Cavaliers, Knights, Pikemen (which you dont get much of ever)
Axes: Fighters. Sometimes a pirate OR a brigand.
Bows: Archers. Lulz.

And now, lets compare what each class is "supposedly" good at:

Mercs: A high powered balence between strength, skill, speed and HP, sometimes defense.
Myrmidons: high speed and skill with average to low strength and defense
Lords: lulz Overpowered (but theyre lords so its ok).
Cavaliers: High skill combined with good attack and defense and passable speed.
Knights: Epic Defense and HP, good attack and respectable skill. Crap speed.
Pikes: pre FE9 they were AIDS incarnated. Now they're just mercs with spears. I think.
Fighters: HP and strength. SUPPOSEDLY decent speed and defense with asinine skill, but hardly ever seen.
Brigands: Fighters with even more HP and less skill.
Pirates: Fighters with a speed stat worth noting.
Archers: Downgraded mercs with bows.

Even when going off their original "intents", there's still balancing problems. Mercs should be average all around, myrmidons should likely have at LEAST average attack (masters of killing blows and all). Cavaliers as enemies should be slower than mercs but compensate with better attack, skill, or defense. As characters they need to be varied depending on the character, ie the Kains are high attack and speed, the Abels are high skill and defense, or something. Knights are good as is, its GENERALS that are broken. Pikes should be slower, more durable mercs, something of a middle ground between mercs and knights. Fighters are good in theory, they just need better characters that live up to the claims. If brigands join the party, their ability to cross mountains needs to have more use. Same for pirates and water. Archers should be just like mercs, but with bows, perhaps.

And while FE stretches the realism pretty far, a little bit of real life basis wouldn't hurt the series. Mercs come off as men-at-arms, which were lightly armored skirmishers with swords. So they should have good HP, speed and skill, with str and defense not far behind. IE: If they have 9 STR, they'd have 11 Skill, 11 SPD, and 9 Def. Myrmidons are speedy killers, and therefore are lacking in defense and endurance but good in dodging and killing, IE: 9 STR, 11 Skill, 15 SPD, 5 DEF. Cavaliers are mounted knights, which were elites with high speed and defense to chase down infantry, IE: 10 STR, 10 Skill, 10 SPD, 10 DEF. Knights as stated are ok as is mostly, IE: 12 STR, 8 Skill, 5 SPD, 15 DEF. Pikes historically were heavy infantry meant to counter cavalry and such, and would do good to be based off the merc, IE: 11 STR, 10 Skill, 9 SPD, 11 DEF. Fighters are assumedly skirmishers, but with higher attack and lesser skill, IE: 15 STR, 6 Skill, 9 SPD, 10 DEF. And finally come archers, which historically were lightly armored, similar to skirmishers, but armed with bows, IE: 8 STR, 13 Skill, 10 SPD, 9 DEF.

... and wow, this came out much longer than expected and sorta rant-ish, but I hope someone enjoys the read 
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camus the dark knight



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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2008, 10:56:33 PM »

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It's not that they're just hard to work with like say, Yodel in FE6, it's that they're impossible to use.

Hence the fun of using them in a playthrough.

I enjoy hardcore challenge, which may very well be where our disagreement  is. Throwing some "impossible" characters in the game provides more options, at least in my case.
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