Balancing Fire Emblem

[Neofox]

I enjoy hardcore challenge, which may very well be where our disagreement  is. Throwing some "impossible" characters in the game provides more options, at least in my case.

If you can beat FE1/3 using Ulf/Zagguro/Boa/etc. and don't resort to stat boosters (which make anyone good), then... You're probably the only one who can.

[Mr. Sirius]

Alot of classes need to be fine tuned, depending on the game. All too often we have Generals with enough speed to make them titans, but our swordmasters are fail because they only need half the speed they get to dodge the enemies and can't do any damage, and while Warriors indeed do have epic HP and Str.... Generals do it, with defense to boot, and knights are much easier to level up than axe fighters. And Archers haven't been useful since like... FE4.

Then come the mounted units, whose superior movement hampers their caps. What kind of crummy balence is that? mountees shouldn't even have similar stats to infantry because they're on a spoony horse.

And then you get character-exclusive problems. Heros on the GBA aren't bad themselves... but Raven in FE7 is a horrible merc. Low con, low defense, he's a swordmaster in hero's clothing. Same with Guy, who's stupidly high 70 speed growth is better suited for a thief, leaving Karel as the only worthwhile swordsman (not counting Lyn).

Then you got weapon using balences. Most units can use swords, some lances, almost none axes. In general, theres...

Swords: Mercs, Myrmidons, Lords, Cavaliers.
Lances: Cavaliers, Knights, Pikemen (which you dont get much of ever)
Axes: Fighters. Sometimes a pirate OR a brigand.
Bows: Archers. Lulz.

And now, lets compare what each class is "supposedly" good at:

Mercs: A high powered balence between strength, skill, speed and HP, sometimes defense.
Myrmidons: high speed and skill with average to low strength and defense
Lords: lulz Overpowered (but theyre lords so its ok).
Cavaliers: High skill combined with good attack and defense and passable speed.
Knights: Epic Defense and HP, good attack and respectable skill. Crap speed.
Pikes: pre FE9 they were AIDS incarnated. Now they're just mercs with spears. I think.
Fighters: HP and strength. SUPPOSEDLY decent speed and defense with asinine skill, but hardly ever seen.
Brigands: Fighters with even more HP and less skill.
Pirates: Fighters with a speed stat worth noting.
Archers: Downgraded mercs with bows.

Even when going off their original "intents", there's still balancing problems. Mercs should be average all around, myrmidons should likely have at LEAST average attack (masters of killing blows and all). Cavaliers as enemies should be slower than mercs but compensate with better attack, skill, or defense. As characters they need to be varied depending on the character, ie the Kains are high attack and speed, the Abels are high skill and defense, or something. Knights are good as is, its GENERALS that are broken. Pikes should be slower, more durable mercs, something of a middle ground between mercs and knights. Fighters are good in theory, they just need better characters that live up to the claims. If brigands join the party, their ability to cross mountains needs to have more use. Same for pirates and water. Archers should be just like mercs, but with bows, perhaps.

And while FE stretches the realism pretty far, a little bit of real life basis wouldn't hurt the series. Mercs come off as men-at-arms, which were lightly armored skirmishers with swords. So they should have good HP, speed and skill, with str and defense not far behind. IE: If they have 9 STR, they'd have 11 Skill, 11 SPD, and 9 Def. Myrmidons are speedy killers, and therefore are lacking in defense and endurance but good in dodging and killing, IE: 9 STR, 11 Skill, 15 SPD, 5 DEF. Cavaliers are mounted knights, which were elites with high speed and defense to chase down infantry, IE: 10 STR, 10 Skill, 10 SPD, 10 DEF. Knights as stated are ok as is mostly, IE: 12 STR, 8 Skill, 5 SPD, 15 DEF. Pikes historically were heavy infantry meant to counter cavalry and such, and would do good to be based off the merc, IE: 11 STR, 10 Skill, 9 SPD, 11 DEF. Fighters are assumedly skirmishers, but with higher attack and lesser skill, IE: 15 STR, 6 Skill, 9 SPD, 10 DEF. And finally come archers, which historically were lightly armored, similar to skirmishers, but armed with bows, IE: 8 STR, 13 Skill, 10 SPD, 9 DEF.

... and wow, this came out much longer than expected and sorta rant-ish, but I hope someone enjoys the read 

You seem to have quite a good grasp of things.  I have to ask, though, what level are those stats mentioned for?  I'm not used to seeing non-20/0 and 20/20 level stats in plurality.

[SirChristopher]

You seem to have quite a good grasp of things.  I have to ask, though, what level are those stats mentioned for?  I'm not used to seeing non-20/0 and 20/20 level stats in plurality.

"Generic" Stats, lol. Basically I took a pool of 40 and divided it evenly into 4 stat groups. magic defense didnt get a mention because only FalconKnights and mages have anything likeable there, and luck is almost totally character-dependent.

If I HAD to say what stat base, maybe a level 8-12 generic enemy? Their stats were similar to that in FE6, I beleive. Maybe a bit lower. On the side note, I forgot to include HP, which is the clear balancening factor in certain classes (myrmidons lack it while fighters and mercs are piles of it, cavaliers are merely average, as are archers, and so on and so forth).

Another thing I think needs balancing... is SPECIALIZED weapons. I HATE the swordkiller, and having dragonslaying axes and lances is just stupid. In fact, there should be MORE limitation to specialized weapons. IMO:

Cavalry: Lances and Axes only. MAYBE, a bow, for the lulz. But knightkillers and halberds are all thats needed here.
Armors: All 4 weapons, which yes, includes bows. Historically speaking, the crossbow was DESIGNED to pierce plate armor. Maybe rename a few weapons. Armorslayer? Psh. ESTOC, bitches.
Infanty: First of all, infantry should be more than swordfighters. Include the damn axe fighters and pikemen and archers or drop anti-infantry weapons all around. Nextly, at the lease the bows should get a weapon that specializes here, because again, arrows were meant to counter infantry. Zweihanders/Claymores for swordians at the least.
Devil Weapons: I demand devil swords to come back. They were terrible awesome 
Dragons: Swords only. The reason they existed is because swordfighters typically had lower strength than the other 3 weapons, except bows, but bows got damage boosts against dragon riders and flying dragons anyway. Axes and spears are typically strong enough to hurt most dragon units by default.

[Lord Glenn]

Dragons: Swords only. The reason they existed is because swordfighters typically had lower strength than the other 3 weapons, except bows, but bows got damage boosts against dragon riders and flying dragons anyway. Axes and spears are typically strong enough to hurt most dragon units by default.

If I may jump in, I have some (constructive) criticism for this statement.

With the inclusion of the weapon triangle, this situation would become more of a problem (unless future games would continue to stick with the changes made in Radiant Dawn). At least in FE6, 7, and 8, the Wyrmslayer is arguably a useless weapon against a Wyvern Rider unless your unit already has enough of an advantage against the enemy unit. Attacking a lance-wielding foe with a sword, albeit one that does more damage, isn't a wonderful idea, as the unit is bound to have (at best) a mediocre hit rating against the foe (on top of the fact that you'll still lose damage from the triangle as well). To counter this, you'd have to incorporate some semblance of the Reaver effect into the weapon that is effective against the foe, and then you're back to the Swordslayer, which you don't like as a weapon (I'll be honest, neither do I). It's a nasty circle that has no real end. At least with weapons effective against cavalry, you have a way of not facing this backwards-thinking situation of attacking with an ineffective weapon. With Wyvern Riders (barring what I said in the beginning), one doesn't have this possibility.

[Alondite]

Ok, well as of now, I have a VERY EARLY balance build that needs a ton of playing to balance.  In theory it is balanced, in practice maybe not. After playing it, it seems pretty decent, though I've noticed some balance issues with bosses and weapons (though they seem to be working themselves out as the game progresses). Some notable things I've done:

-FE7 AS system sucks, since con does not have growth.  Thus, I made all weapons Mt 1. Call it stupid if you will, but smaller characters should not get hampered because they have a major disadvantage that is not easily fixed.
-No more long range magic.  Yeah, when enemies had it all you did was have a high Res unit soak it up, and when you had it it was barely useful. Instead, I've made long rang magic "killer" magic, with high crit.
-Legault as a level 1 Assassin.  You don't need 2 thieves.  Assassins have thiefkey (or I gave it to them? Don't remember), so they can open doors and chests.  Only thieves can steal from enemies, but you don't use that much anyway. Plus, Legault is supposedly 2nd only to the fangs, so why not make him so?
- +15 crit for Assassins. They should have had it to begin with.
-No class with less than 25 Str cap.  Str is very important, and low Str just makes some classes worthless.

There's more, I just can't be arsed to list it all.  As for having unbalanced characters to make it harder...why not jsut make every character equally useful and make the enemies stronger?  My weapons seem like they might be a bit off...but this is my 1st build (not even 1.0) and it sounded good in my head. That and enemies might need a bit of work, they are pretty tough early on, and have been so far (I'm on ch. 21 so far), but  have a feeling that they may become a little weak later, until there are more promoted units. Anyway, this is what I have so far:

Growths:

           HP   Str   Ski   Spd   Def   Res   Luck
Eliwood   80   35   40   35   30   20   40
Hector   90   50   35   25   50   15   15
Lyn        70   30   45   45   20   25   45
Raven   75   35   40   30   35   10   20
Geitz     90   35   35   40   30   20   30
Guy      70   35   40   40   15   15   30
Karel     75   35   50   40   25   25   30
Dorcas   90   45   35   25   20   10   20
Bartre   90   40   30   35   25   10   15
Oswin   85   35   30   15   50   10   20
Wil       75   30   45   35   15   15   30
Rebecca   65   25   35   45   15   20   40
Louise   70   35   45   40   20   35   35
Lucius   70   40   25   35   10   40   25
Serra     60   30   30   40   10   35   40
Renault   70   60   35   20   60   10   25
Erk       70   45   35   30   10   30   25
Nino      65   40   40   40   20   35   40
Pent      70   30   45   35   25   40   35
Canas   70   45   35   25   10   40   20
Kent     85   35   30   30   35   15   15
Sain      80   30   35   40   25   15   20
Lowen   90   30   20   35   30   20   20
Marcus   85   30   50   25   35   35   20
Priscilla   60   35   30   30   10   35   45
Rath     85   30   35   40   15   15   25
Florina   65   25   35   45   20   25   30
Fiora     70   30   40   35   15   35   20
Farina   75   35   30   35   25   20   25
Heath   85   35   35   25   35   10   20
Vaida     80   35   50   35   30   25   25
Hawkeye   90   50   40   20   30   30   20
Matthew   75   30   35   45   15   15   30
Jaffar    75   45   50   40   25   25   20
Wallace   100   50   30   15   50   15   20
Dart      85   45   20   35   30   10   20
Isadora   80   30   35   40   30   30   35
Legault   75   40   35   45   25   25   35
Karla      75   40   45   45   35   30   45
Harken   85   40   35   30   35   30   25

Class bases:

           HP   Str   Ski   Spd   Def   Res
Merc     20   7   10   7   6   0
Hero     35   14   17   13   11   5
Myrm     20   6   10   10   4   0
Swordmaster35   13   17   17   8   5
Fighter   30   10   6   5   4   0
Warrior   45   17   13   11   9   5
Knight   25   8   6   4   10   0
General   40   14   13   8   17   5
Archer   20   6   10   8   6   0
Sniper   35   11   17   14   10   8
Monk    15   9   5   7   2   10
Bishop   30   16   10   13   7   17
Mage    15   8   10   6   2   7
Sage     30   14   17   12   7   13
Shaman   15   10   8   5   2   8
Druid     30   17   15   10   7   14
Cavalier   25   7   6   7   7   0
Paladin   40   13   12   14   14   5
Troubadour   15   6   7   8   2   10
Valkyrie   30   12   13   14   7   17
Nomad   25   6   7   9   5   0
Nomad Trooper40   12   15   16   10   5
Peg Knight   20   5   7   9   5   4
Falco Knight35   10   13   16   11   10
Wyvern   25   8   6   5   9   0
Wyvern Lord40   14   12   11   16   5
Soldier   25   8   6   7   7   0
Brigand   25   10   2   8   8   0
Pirate    25   10   4   8   6   0
Berserker   40   17   8   15   13   5
Theif     20   5   10   10   5   0
Assassin   35   11   17   17   10   5

Class growths:

           HP   Str   Ski   Spd   Def   Res   Luck
Merc     80   15   25   20   15   5   20
Hero     80   20   35   30   20   5   20
Myrm    70   15   25   25   10   5   30
Swordmaster70   20   35   35   10   10   30
Fighter   90   25   20   20   10   5   10
Warrior   90   40   25   25   15   5   10
Knight   80   20   15   10   30   5   20
General   80   25   25   10   45   5   20
Archer   70   15   25   20   10   10   30
Sniper   70   20   35   30   15   10   30
Monk    60   20   10   15   5   30   40
Bishop   60   25   15   15   5   50   40
Mage    60   15   10   20   5   30   40
Sage     60   20   30   25   5   30   40
Shaman   60   25   10   10   5   30   40
Druid     60   30   25   15   5   35   40
Cavalier   70   20   15   20   20   5   30
Paladin   70   25   20   30   30   5   30
Troubadour   60   10   15   20   5   30   40
Valkyrie   60   20   20   25   5   40   40
Nomad   80   15   25   25   10   5   20
Nomad Trooper80   20   35   35   10   10   20
Peg Knight   60   15   20   25   10   10   40
Falco Knight   60   20   25   30   15   20   40
Wyvern   80   20   20   15   20   5   20
Wyvern Lord   80   25   25   15   30   5   20
Soldier   70   20   20   20   20   5   30
Brigand   90   30   5   20   20   5   10
Pirate   80   30   10   20   15   5   20
Berserker   80   40   15   30   20   5   20
Theif     70   10   25   30   10   5   30

Class Caps:

           Str   Ski   Spd   Def   Res
Knight Lord   28   29   27   26   20
Blade Lord   26   30   30   20   24
Great Lord   30   26   24   30   20
Hero     27   30   26   24   15
Swordmaster27   30   30   20   15
Swordmaster26   30   30   20   16 (f)
Warrior   30   27   26   24   15
General   29   26   22   30   15
Sniper   26   30   28   20   18
Sniper (F)   25   30   29   20   18
Bishop   27   24   26   15   30
Bishop (F)   26   23   28   15   30
Sage     27   30   25   15   25
Sage (F)   28   26   28   15   25
Druid     30   28   22   15   27
Paladin    27   26   27   27   15
Valkyrie   25   26   28   15   28
Nomad Trooper26   27   29   20   20
Falco Knight25   27   28   20   22
Dragon Master27   26   25   29   15
Dragon Master26   26   27   28   15 (f)
Berserker   30   23   28   26   15
Assassin   25   30   30   20   18
Paladin (F)   26   27   28   26   15

Weapon data:

           Use   Mt    Acc   Crit
Slim Sword   50   5   100   10
Iron Sword   40   7   90   0
Steel Sword30   9   80   0
Silver Sword20   12   70   0
Iron Blade   40   9   70   0
Steel Blade   30   11   60   0
Silver Blade   20   14   50   0
Poison Sword30   7   70   10
Rapier   50   9   90   10
Mani Katti   50   7   90   20
Brave Sword30   9   70   0
Wo Dao   20   7   80   40
Killing Edge   20   9   70   30
Armor Slayer20   9   80   10
Wyrm Slayer20   9   80   10
Light Brand   20   9   80   0
Rune Sword   20   12   70   0
Lance Reaver20   9   80   10
Long Sword   20   9   80   10
Iron Lance   40   8   80   0
Slim Lance   50   6   90   10
Steel Lance   30   10   70   0
Silver Lance20   13   60   0
Poison Lance30   8   60   10
Brave Lance30   10   60   0
Killer Lance   20   10   60   30
Horseslayer   20   10   70   10
Javelin   40   8   70   0
Spear   20   13   50   10
Axereaver   20   10   70   10
Iron Axe   40   9   70   0
Steel Axe   30   11   60   0
Silver Axe   20   14   50   0
Poison Axe   30   9   50   10
Brave Axe   30   11   50   0
Killer Axe   20   11   50   30
Halberd   20   11   60   10
Hammer   20   11   60   10
Devil Axe   20   18   50   10
Hand Axe   40   9   60   0
Tomahawk   20   11   50   10
Swordreaver20   11   50   10
Swordslayer20   11   50   10
Iron Bow   40   7   90   0
Steel Bow   30   9   80   0
Silver Bow   20   12   70   0
Poison Bow   30   7   70   10
Killer Bow   20   9   70   30
Brave Bow   30   9   60   0
Short Bow   50   5   100   10
Long Bow   20   9   70   0
Short Spear30   10   60   5
Fire      50   4   100   0
Thunder   40   6   90   0
Elfire     30   8   80   0
Bolting   20   8   70   30
Fimbulvetr   20   11   70   0
Forblaze   50   18   80   0
Excalibur   50   15   60   10
Lightning   50   5   90   0
Shine    40   7   80   0
Divine   30   9   70   0
Pruge    20   9   60   30
Aura     20   12   60   0
Luce     50   16   50   10
Aureola   50   20   70   0
Flux      50   6   80   0
Luna     40   8   70   0
Nosferatu   25   9   55   0
Eclipse   20   10   50   30
Fenrir   20   13   50   0
Durandal   50   18   80   0
Armads   50   20   70   0
Sol Katti   50   15   80   30
Wolf Beil   50   11   70   10
Ereshkigal   0   25   80   0
Regal Blade   50   16   70   10
Rex Hasta   50   17   60   10
Basilikos   50   18   50   10
Rienfleche   50   16   70   10
Heavy Spear20   10   70   10


There are some things that need tweaking, and I haven't adjusted for things like different movements and crit boosts, but those things come later.

[SirChristopher]

If I may jump in, I have some (constructive) criticism for this statement.

With the inclusion of the weapon triangle, this situation would become more of a problem (unless future games would continue to stick with the changes made in Radiant Dawn). At least in FE6, 7, and 8, the Wyrmslayer is arguably a useless weapon against a Wyvern Rider unless your unit already has enough of an advantage against the enemy unit. Attacking a lance-wielding foe with a sword, albeit one that does more damage, isn't a wonderful idea, as the unit is bound to have (at best) a mediocre hit rating against the foe (on top of the fact that you'll still lose damage from the triangle as well). To counter this, you'd have to incorporate some semblance of the Reaver effect into the weapon that is effective against the foe, and then you're back to the Swordslayer, which you don't like as a weapon (I'll be honest, neither do I). It's a nasty circle that has no real end. At least with weapons effective against cavalry, you have a way of not facing this backwards-thinking situation of attacking with an ineffective weapon. With Wyvern Riders (barring what I said in the beginning), one doesn't have this possibility.

I always liked the Dragon Killer for that very reason. Normally, a sword fighter stands no chance against a Dragon Rider, or worse yet, a Dragon Master, but with the Dragon Killer he stands at least some of an edge. That being said... the Dragon Killer in and of itself is useless. Low base attack and inaccurate for a sword. It could be alot better.

But going beyond that... I was also referring to DRAGON dragons, ala FE1/3, where the Dragon Killer came in handy ALOT. Lancers and axemen typically had good strength on them, as well as much more powerful weapons, but swordians got the short stick, so they remidied it with a sword thats effective against dragons.

[SacredSage2]

With great difficulty. If you were to ake Fire Emblme perfectly balanced you would end up with Advance Wars.

I guarantee if you go to an Advance Wars board they will fight you on this.  Most people tend to think that anything thats costs more than 7,000g is a complete waste of money.  Basically all but seven units.

[Mr. Sirius]

Technically, it sort of is.  The "stats" per G is better than any other unit overall...but that's besides the point.
Balancing Fire Emblem means exactly what I said in my post, but you yourself have to determine what kind of balance do you want?

For example, I personally believe in battles where 1 ally unit vs. 2 enemy units should be difficult if both attack, but equal if one attacks.  Some others might believe in balancing it like Campaigns, where Campaigns have many but weaker enemies.  Some others might believe in the Hard Mode Factor by making it almost ridiculously difficult to beat the enemy.

[FE3_Player]

FEDS is actually pretty balanced in its mechanics, even balanced to take account 2 RNs.  FEDS is not perfectly balanced though, but here my suggestions, which there aren't many because they did such a good job.  Even Class Swap is for the most part balanced (except for two units which, the units themselves need to be nerfed).

- Swordmasters need an evade boost instead of accuracy boosts.  Switching to 1x Speed instead of 2x Speed was overall beneficial to the game's challenge and balance.  With a static evade boost, it would help cover their weakness without making other classes redundant in dodging ability.
Note that Swordmasters aren't completely useless.  On H5 mode, their high speed allows them to double enemies that most characters won't be able to, as well as avoiding being doubled themselves.

- Zagaro & Wolf have base growths that are far too high.  They are already overpowered being able to become Generals, but their base growths give them too much in just a few levels.  These two need to be nerfed, badly.

- A lot of mid-late game pre-promotes weren't buffed enough to be useful, not even for temporary uses.  They still carry FE1/3 base stats in a game that uses the GBA stat scale.  The fact that they don't get as much EXP is already a nerf in itself, but they have a hard time being useful now.

With that, I feel that H5's increase in enemy speed was the best way to balance Fire Emblem.  Seriously.  Not everybody is going to be doubling, not for a while at least, so faster/weaker characters are actually useful in this sense.  It means that tanks can be doubled often, but that is only a problem on H5 because enemies are so strong there.

Misc stuff outside of FEDS:

- I always had the idea that there could be different types of critical hits for different units.  From the list would be Moonlight Hit, Sunlight Hit, FE4/5 style crits (double attack instead of 3x damage), normal crits.  This would be unit specific and not class specific, the exception likely being Assassinate, which in particular instead of being 50% of instant kill or Critical Hit, it would be a guaranteed OHKO, but to balance it, you would have half your critical rate (after weapon crit is applied).

- Every unit should not be balanced.  Prepromotes should excel at ranked games, while not being better than unpromoted units, while some units should be better than others and there should be niche roles.  I believe though, that the best unit should not be too powerful, even if he is still better than everyone else.  Remember, you are fighting against generics in lopsided conditions.

- Fire Emblem should NOT be about one unit taking out whole armies.  It needs to be more about teamwork, which I am wholeheartedly glad FEDS returned to being about units working together.

- Enemies should continue making use of weakness hitting weapons and stronger weapons. 

[hyde]

In all honesty, if the games were to be perfectly balanced I wouldn't nearly enjoy playing them as much as I do now. It doesn't have to be FE4 levels of sucky balancing, but I don't want the game to be perfectly balanced either.

[FE3_Player]

I agree.  There can't be perfect balance, but less redundancy is always nice.  I always like to balance things out by trying to give something a more unique role that they can be useful in.  I also like to make sure nothing is too overpowered, which is a bigger concern than balance.