A Moment of Clarity

[dilbertschalter]

Also, I could be wrong, but activity in Serious Discussion seems to be at roughly the same level its always been (low), but it's also posted in by a very small more long-term subset of the memberbase. I'd like to help raise activity in that forum, but the only thing I can think of that I would do (and have sort of wanted to do for a while) isn't really going to help the issue at hand.

The SD used to be quite a bit more active; I'd says it has taken about the same hit to activity as the rest of the forum has, it might be doing worse off actually.

As for the more general point, I think it may be difficult to revive the site. You can have lots of content, but I don't there's much here that people want that you can't find on GameFAQs.

[Derpicane]

Like many older members I originally joined for Fire Emblem but sticked around for the community. That doesn't mean that I'm not a fan of Fire Emblem anymore, though. I'd still like to talk about it, it's just that there aren't many others to talk with.

This. I may not play it often, and it may not be my favorite series anymore, but I still love it and adore everything about it- I've even been meaning to start some group challenges, but I wasn't sure if I had to ask to go through with that. Guess this is the place to ask that- Do I have to ask permission to start something like that?

Anyway, though... I've been here for four years. Long time. I absolutely cherish this board, and watching it dwindle like this is sad. I'd do anything to help it, if... there's anything to do. 

And as far as the elitism goes... I've noticed it in the past (Namely back in the days immediately proceeding the Jet/Zephyr incident- is that The Incident 2?- as I pointed out then), but it's not nearly as bad now. I don't know if it's simply that I've been less active recently that I haven't noticed it or what, but nonetheless...

EDIT: Also, kudos for bringing Jyosua back. He's improved hugely, and I always thought he would be a good exception to our perma-ban policy.

[Pair of Ducks]

I'd like to throw some agreement at the issues presented by Captain Chaos, and Roylover.

The problem with FESS right now, is due to a lot of moving variables that aren't easy to explain, and certainly even harden to take into consideration all at once.


The thing is, that we've had a certain group of "core" members, who've always been around.  And because they've been around such a long time, these members have grown up.  They don't need to be in an environment where everyone's feelings need to be coddled.  Internet culture being what it is, often interaction between these members if marked by tongue-in-cheek disrespect.  Multiply this effect about twenty times for anyone trying to enter chat.

I think part of it is that FESS is a rather unwelcoming place.  We have a very "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" attitude when it comes to members complaining about the what could be said to be abusive behavior of other members.  I hate to invoke Blacky Wacky, (I swear, it's like FESS' version of Godwin's Law) but putting his name out there makes it so everyone knows exactly what I mean.

Now, do I think it's -wrong-?  Well, no.  But that's not to say that's how the forum as a whole should look at this issue, depending on that the community decides its goal is.

Telling each other to go suck cock is all very nice and jovial amongst friends, but I can imagine how being a younger new member in the forum, and being told to suck cock every time one makes a silly mistake or statement, or enter the CD or chat for that matter, is certainly not welcoming.  It doesn't invite anyone to stick around except people looking to troll.

So what we've got is everyone trying to be a "witty and loveable bastard", everyone being afraid to tell people to lay off because "fucking 'tards deserve it", and anyone who can't keep up is slowly marginalized.

I also have to say we really aren't very welcoming about sharing various points of view outside the SD board.  Look at how hostile some of the "Is Ike gay?" threads turned to be ... or the terrible hell we've given Neofox or Pukachi in the past.

All in all, I guess what I'm saying is that if the goal is to have FESS be a large community that is welcoming to newcomers and increased activity, then we need to start regulating the community like its a group of strangers/acquaintances rather than a small group of friends.  Because while it may be acceptable to relentlessly tease and poke fun at amongst friends, the same behavior wouldn't be looked so highly upon, say, a church group or large school club.  In short, we need to value respect and tolerance over truth and free speech, if the goal is to attract new members rather than indulge the old member-base.

EDIT: edited for clarity 

[i am a raging faggot who loves big dicks]

In short, we need to value respect and tolerance over truth and free speech, if the goal is to attract new members rather than indulge the old member-base.

This is the one thoroughly disappointing notion I have seen in this thread. "You can't say that" is a great way to kill a community.

[Pair of Ducks]

This is the one thoroughly disappointing notion I have seen in this thread. "You can't say that" is a great way to kill a community.

That's the hard thing.

If we were to say that FESS's goal was not to be welcoming to new members, but to build a small and closely-knit community, the opposite would be true - when people know each other it's a lot easier to accept verbal abuse for all sorts of reasons.

But under the premise that FESS goal is not that, and is indeed to welcome new members and improve forum activity, circumstances change.  Hence me bolding the 'if' in the start of that paragraph.

However, even so I don't think I'm suggesting we begin to say "You can't say that".  I think we need to say ""You can't say that that like that."

It's an age old dilemma, really; harmony vs. freedom

We need to choose which way FESS is going to go, and then try to act accordingly.  Or more accurately, we need to balance these to the degree that is best for all of us.

[Jimmy]

I wish you remembered what that name was... I'll be willing to bet that person is gone, and not willingly so. We had a bit of an... um, "upheaval" since. Stuff like that is what made Liz drop off in the first place.

See, I don't view us as elitist as much as just that we set aside certain rules, and expect them to be adhered to. But this many people saying this, especially at this point, is causing me alarm. This is going to be something I look into.

And that is what is frustrating. I don't browse enough to really know what the boards are like now, but the incident I mentioned in my previous post happened at least two years ago...maybe even longer since I think it was on FESS2. The fact someone is finally willing to "look into it" when it has been a problem with this community for a long time isn't encouraging.

The quality of posted topics has always been lacking too. I can expect as much from a single series website, but this site in particular is quite severe. Do we need to know that everyone still likes Lyn and Hector in a "favorite" topic five years after the game was released?

[quanta]

I think part of it is that FESS is a rather unwelcoming place.  We have a very "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" attitude when it comes to members complaining about the what could be said to be abusive behavior of other members.

Abusive is a stretch. The only consistent criticism from the memberbase I can think of is when people don't make an effort to use correct punctuation and grammar.

The thing is, that we've had a certain group of "core" members, who've always been around.  And because we've been around such a long time, these members have grown up.  They don't need to be in an environment where everyone's feelings need to be coddled.  Internet culture being what it is, often interaction between these members if marked by tongue-in-cheek disrespect.  Multiply this effect about twenty times for anyone trying to enter chat.

The core group of members consists of people from FESS1, FESS2, and FESS4 who joined years apart. Chat has always been more rough then the forums, and FESS has been a critical community as long as I've been here. As long as you're not a total smacktard, I think you'll probably get along fine in chat.

I hate to invoke Blacky Wacky, (I swear, it's like FESS' version of Godwin's Law) but putting his name out there makes it so everyone knows exactly what I mean.

A thousand times no. We do not need to retread this ground again.

All in all, I guess what I'm saying is that if the goal is to have FESS be a large community that is welcoming to newcomers and increased activity, then we need to start regulating the community like its a group of strangers/acquaintances rather than a small group of friends.  Because while it may be acceptable to relentlessly tease and poke fun at amongst friends, the same behavior wouldn't be looked so highly upon, say, a church group or large school club.  In short, we need to value respect and tolerance over truth and free speech, if the goal is to attract new members rather than indulge the old member-base.

I strongly disagree, but I also don't think these are really opposing values. Respect needs to be earned though. I'm not going to go tear into people for no reason, but if somebody says something incorrect, I'm definitely not going to pretend otherwise or pretend that what is wrong is valid (there are difference between being incorrect and having a different opinion, but that doesn't mean I won't question or test people's beliefs just because they aren't necessarily incorrect).

[Captain Chaos]

Abusive is a stretch. The only consistent criticism from the memberbase I can think of is when people don't make an effort to use correct punctuation and grammar.

Yes but you see, mostly in the CD (maybe in some other cases, not sure), if you try to post something that would normally belong there (say, a video), you'd get such replies as

"cool story bro"
"lol wut"

etc, etc, with nothing pertaining to that video, and then the thread gets derailed and off topic to discussion only among the "clique"

I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it has happened to me and other members I've seen.

[hyde]

And that is what is frustrating. I don't browse enough to really know what the boards are like now, but the incident I mentioned in my previous post happened at least two years ago...maybe even longer since I think it was on FESS2. The fact someone is finally willing to "look into it" when it has been a problem with this community for a long time isn't encouraging.

The quality of posted topics has always been lacking too. I can expect as much from a single series website, but this site in particular is quite severe. Do we need to know that everyone still likes Lyn and Hector in a "favorite" topic five years after the game was released?

Maybe not to us, but it can be to new members or new players. And isn't that what we need the most now?

[quanta]

Yes but you see, mostly in the CD (maybe in some other cases, not sure), if you try to post something that would normally belong there (say, a video), you'd get such replies as

"cool story bro"
"lol wut"

etc, etc, with nothing pertaining to that video, and then the thread gets derailed and off topic to discussion only among the "clique"

I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it has happened to me and other members I've seen.

The CD? Oh yeah, I'm inclined to agree its crap, I thought you were talking mostly about things outiside of it, not in it. The problem is... it's the CD, it was never intended to be meant for any meaningful discussion.

[Captain Chaos]

The CD? Oh yeah, I'm inclined to agree its crap, I thought you were talking mostly about things outiside of it, not in it. The problem is... it's the CD, it was never intended to be meant for any meaningful discussion.

I guess I used a bad example.. but I HAVE seen such behavior outside of the CD.

[Crystal Shards]

Normally people who say shit like "lol wut" outside of the CD get carded for spam.

[Captain Chaos]

Normally people who say shit like "lol wut" outside of the CD get carded for spam.

It was just an example, it doesn't have to necessarily be the same situation and dialogue like I provided, and this was at least a year ago that I'm remembering.

[Pair of Ducks]

@quanta;

The thing is, from my personal standpoints I agree with you.  However, I can also understand the other side very clearly.

Abusive is a stretch. The only consistent criticism from the memberbase I can think of is when people don't make an effort to use correct punctuation and grammar.

Alright, abusive might be a stretch.  Perhaps dismissive or condescending would be a better way to say it.  While outright hostility is usually reserved for people doing stupid things (whether it affects the forums or not..), a lot of time there's just a form of communication that isn't exactly welcoming.  Even small replys like "lolwut" (not too uncommon) aren't exactly conducive to communication or a welcoming atmosphere.

The core group of members consists of people from FESS1, FESS2, and FESS4 who joined years apart.

Agreed, but overall my point is that people are getting older.  If someone joined in 2004 and were 14 then, they're 18 now.  Or if they were 18 then, they're 22.  It's a big jump either way, in mentality.

Chat has always been more rough then the forums, and FESS has been a critical community as long as I've been here. As long as you're not a total smacktard, I think you'll probably get along fine in chat.

Agreed, and I myself rather enjoy the chat most of the time.  I don't personally mind chat one bit.  But it's just not conducive to new people. Let me see; in chat, right now -
~Vladivostok
@MageKnight404
+Blacky Wacky
+Darkslime
+Fox
+quanta
[sage]
Jedor
Mad_Fredin
Paradox
PossibleBit
Raven
Refia

I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the people there have been around a while.  Yeah, it's always been rougher, which is fine because the people who like chat like it that way - but you have to admit, that's a bit of a self-propagating attitude.

A thousand times no. We do not need to retread this ground again.

Why not? ;D  by Blacky Wacky standards things shouldn't be ignored.  Though I did mention Blacky Wacky precisely because this horse has been beat to death, resurrected by Nergal, and beaten to death again.  The point is, when I say it, everyone knows what complaints I'm talking about.

I strongly disagree, but I also don't think these are really opposing values. Respect needs to be earned though. I'm not going to go tear into people for no reason, but if somebody says something incorrect, I'm definitely not going to pretend otherwise or pretend that what is wrong is valid (there are difference between being incorrect and having a different opinion, but that doesn't mean I won't question or test people's beliefs just because they aren't necessarily incorrect).

Alright, agreed again.  But we're using a certain amount of equivocation here.  Though respect does need to be earned, there's also minimal ways in which it's alright to address people.  "Hey Cockbag, you're obviously clueless go screw yourself", short of inciting flaming remarks, is just not a proper or respectful way to respond to someone.  But we allow it, and I think beyond merely tolerate it, we allow it to flourish.

[Crystal Shards]

It was just an example, it doesn't have to necessarily be the same situation and dialogue like I provided, and this was at least a year ago that I'm remembering.

It's probably better for all parties if you'd use current and relatively accurate examples. We can't really improve based on stuff you make up about a time frame which is no longer really relevant...

[Superbus]

And that is what is frustrating. I don't browse enough to really know what the boards are like now, but the incident I mentioned in my previous post happened at least two years ago...maybe even longer since I think it was on FESS2. The fact someone is finally willing to "look into it" when it has been a problem with this community for a long time isn't encouraging.

The quality of posted topics has always been lacking too. I can expect as much from a single series website, but this site in particular is quite severe. Do we need to know that everyone still likes Lyn and Hector in a "favorite" topic five years after the game was released?

What I don't get is exactly what people mean by "elitist". I have a feeling that this is the same problem Barack Obama has. Historically, we've had a higher standard of discourse than FEFF and FEP, where you could essentially go in and type with your phallus if you wanted to. That's just a standard we've maintained.

But I don't understand what's meant by "elitist". It's not like we think we're "better" than the other sites... or at least I don't. What is meant with this word? This is an open question.

[quanta]

Alright, agreed again.  But we're using a certain amount of equivocation here.  Though respect does need to be earned, there's also minimal ways in which it's alright to address people.  "Hey Cockbag, you're obviously clueless go screw yourself", short of inciting flaming remarks, is just not a proper or respectful way to respond to someone.  But we allow it, and I think beyond merely tolerate it, we allow it to flourish.

The thing is, I can't think of many examples even close to this extreme (barring the CD maybe, I dunno I don't go there). I certainly wouldn't say it flourishes, although I could be wrong.

[Pair of Ducks]

The thing is, I can't think of many examples even close to this extreme (barring the CD maybe, I dunno I don't go there). I certainly wouldn't say it flourishes, although I could be wrong.

Agreed, it mostly isn't that extreme. But I admit to still being a bit angry over a few that were.  Also, admittedly, at the one I'm referencing most, the offender did get disciplined by 'Bus. 

But what I mean is that overall, as a member base, we don't look down on people for being so .. well, rude.  Because it's something few people voice concern over, and those who do are seen as whiners.

But I don't understand what's meant by "elitist". It's not like we think we're "better" than the other sites... or at least I don't. What is meant with this word? This is an open question.

I think what a lot of people mean isn't really "elitist".  Just that FESS has an aura of being .. a bit exclusive somewhat.  It's precisely because the community has been around for so long and because some members are so close knit.  It just isn't very welcoming for your typical forum viewer (random 14-17 year olds ... if we want them here is another matter entirely) ... and calmer, more mature people are driven away by the sheer amount of facetious remarks.

[Jimmy]

I strongly disagree, but I also don't think these are really opposing values. Respect needs to be earned though. I'm not going to go tear into people for no reason, but if somebody says something incorrect, I'm definitely not going to pretend otherwise or pretend that what is wrong is valid (there are difference between being incorrect and having a different opinion, but that doesn't mean I won't question or test people's beliefs just because they aren't necessarily incorrect).

I don't mean any offense to quanta, but this statement, to me, is elitism. I see no reason why respect should need earning and it is possible to criticize and question without being abrasive. The same can be said when correcting a member. I've been browsing and I can safely say things do look better than they used to, but I still see issues. I've found one case in point: Lord Ephidel.

This user registered on October 11th and his last activity date was October 17th. He may just not have the time to visit or something. Who knows? But the fact remains this new user hasn't visited in four days. I was looking at his posts, and their responses. He did a lot of necroposting, and many staff members told him to read the rules. First, he may not know what necroposting means. In fact, it is new terminology to me and I've been posting on online message boards for eight years now. However, knowing what "necro" implies I'm able to understand what you mean by necroposting. That doesn't mean you should expect this of new members. Second, reading the rules is more easily said than done when the rules section of the board is titled "Manual of FESS Prowess." Even more frustrating is typing "rules" into the search function yields no results, and, depending on the position of the actual forum over the default background, you can't even see the link to the Manual of Fess Prowess. How can you expect new users to read the rules when you can't even tell them where to find them. You could at least offer a link. Instead, you correct this user with something like this:

Wonderful. How about you read our damn rules? That's two necroposts. Look at the last posting date.

This quote comes from a topic in the FE7 forum, and Superbus posted it on Lord Ephidel's first day on the forums. A good way to define "elitism" is by replacing it with the word "snobbish." Where is the "snobbishness" in this post? Most obvious is the tone. It starts with sarcasm, then moves to irritation, then to an explanation the new user might not even understand. Now, I concede Lord Ephidel isn't/wasn't a great newbie, but did you  need to be as harsh as you were when correcting him? No. On the contrary, the approach you took, now that is elitism.

Having moderated other forums myself, I can say a new user who knows good forum etiquette is rare. New users, whether they know how to act on a forum or not, are what keep forums active, but you can't really attract new users into becoming vets when you aren't setting very good examples of conduct for them.

Oh, and one more thing. Check out Lord Ephidel's topic in the new user forum. How can you expect a new member to feel welcome when their introduction topic becomes yet another place for vets to poke fun at each other while the new member is ignored?

[Willfor]

Second, reading the rules is more easily said than done when the rules section of the board is titled "Manual of FESS Prowess." Even more frustrating is typing "rules" into the search function yields no results, and, depending on the position of the actual forum over the default background, you can't even see the link to the Manual of Fess Prowess. How can you expect new users to read the rules when you can't even tell them where to find them.

I just want to note this for the current staff that the assumption that our newer members have played FE7, and would understand this in-joke should not be a given anymore.

I am not going to comment directly on any other part of this thread because I believe I have had enough of this discussion to last me for a lifetime, however I would suggest that the current people we have been listening to (the ones who seem to be the most forceful about their beliefs) are the ones who have been setting our policy on this issue for as long as we have been at this location. Just throwing that out there. :')