Starting my first playthrough

[Mekkah]

"How is it more beneficial when Igrene hardly has any good supporting options and that Dorothy does."

It has nothing to do with supports, lol. Even if it was a point, it only works against Igrene, because Klein can get Clarine and Dieck. And even Igrene has a viable support in Fa.

Anyway, if you use a Sniper for less chapters you:
- have to shield your Sniper for less, and thus have a more flexible time for a longer time period
- have more EXP and weapon EXP for all your other units
- are generally less expensive because you're using more of weapons other than bows, and bows are the most expensive weapons

"That does not make a difference, it is the same if you do not use Dieck and that you are only using Oujay, as you will have an extra Hero Crest and that you can sell that for the same price. It's the same to any other 1st class unit that you are not using. But, why should Dorothy be benched when the same can apply to any other 1st class unit that you are not planning on using? Really, what is so bad about her that makes everyone else batter? What I am saying is that the result will be the same to any other character of the same class that you are not using as you really do not need to use two or more units of the same class as you will not have room to bring that character in the final 2 chapters as it is recommended to bring one unit of every different type of class to have a well balanced team and that to get them to use each of the different type of Divine Weapons!! Also they would get to a higher level then they normally would by training both or more units of the same class!"

Wow that is long. Anyway, yes if you throw Dieck out of your team for someone who doesn't need a Hero Crest then you save one Hero Crest. And if you throw him out for someone who doesn't need to use a promotion item, you saved a whole promotion item. It works against Alan, Lance, Dieck, Rutger, Clarine, Lugh, Ray, Miledy and many other units, INCLUDING Dorothy, but NOT against Klein and Igrene. Therefore, they get a point for that.

And no, you don't need someone of every class. You don't even need a unit of every weapon type, but most players do that anyway. For the vast majority of the game, you are better off with anyone that can do ranged (lances, axes, magic) than bows, and arguably better off with swords as well. For the last part, the holy bow is nice, but not worth a sucky weapon for the rest of the game. Even in the chapter they're intended for (the Mamkute feast) you are usually only fighting with like four at a time, maybe five counting taking on a reinforcement. I'd rather bring a filler healer with Physic than another fighter if it means I don't have to train a bow user during the game.

"Yes Killer is more recommended, but you see Dorothy does not need something like that to train as it will just get more inevitible if she did get the opportunity to use one making it that much easier to train her as she has more chance to excel at alot more speed as she has the option to level up alot more times, but Igrene and Klein's starting bases ain't gonna really help them in the long run as their growths are ALOT worse than Dorothy's."

Way to dawdle on and on and go off-topic halfway through. Anyway, how about looking at the rest of your team wanting Killer weapons, or maybe looking at efficiency in general? If I can use more killer weapons when picking unit A over unit B, I will gladly take the option. No reason not to, aye. The whole stats thing is a different world, but if you wish to argue that: Snipers will always be a negative contribution to your army for the most part, but since Klein and Igrene aren't a negative early on (since they don't exist, and actually make the rest of your team more powerful since they get more EXP) and midgame they have a level lead. Only in the endgame, Dorothy is superior. And their stats, unlike those of other units, only work on player phase. Because they cannot do a damn on enemy phase.

"That maybe true, but she does not need anything other than Iron Weapons, as you will not be surprised at the amount of freebie Steel weapons that you get in the game that you can sell to by her some Iron Bows! "

Again, I can sell those if I have Igrene/Klein too, so it's not a point for Dorothy at all. More cash is more cash.

"Maybe so, but Dorothy can get just as good as them by promoting her around level 12 and even better if later. But, for any enemies that are not promoted the EXP gain will get lessened from a prepromo unit than from a rookie unit. You are actually earning more EXP from weaker units than that from prepromo's. See using Igrene and Klein to kill them will just waste EXP. If you're to use them, they would have to kill promoted enemies to level up normally as that from a rookie unit killing an enemy unit that is not promoted!"

You're assuming the player is dumb and gives kills to Klein and Igrene when they're not improving from it at all. The idea with prepromotes in your final team is that they can slack off a bit and wait until your other units gain roughly the same amount of EXP, and then still help out because of their level lead. No unit wastes EXP, it's the tactician that spreads EXP the wrong way. It's the whole "SETH HOGS EXP HES BAD" thing all over again. If Pent joined your army at Ch12 in FE7, would that make him bad?

"But even so, their base stats are not going to help them out for long, as their growths are more worser and that with Dorothy, she will not need a Stat Booster, as her growths are solid enough for her to get on par with them, surpassing them if she promotes at LV20! See the result will be the same either way as you need to use an Orion's Bolt on her! But for a prepromo other than Percevial and Klein (due to the Hard Mode bonuses), they will actually be more expensive, as they might need more than one stat up item as prepromo's have a greater chance at getting screwed than that from a rookie unit. But, Prepromo's are only more helpful in the Hard Mode as they can be used to weaken foes for the rookie units to get the finishing blow at them."

Has nothing to do with what was said, or is completely wrong. Come back when you actually read what I say and respond to it too. I can use a stat booster with the saved money on ANYONE, preferably someone who fights more than TWICE AS MUCH because they're not locked to bows. They do not have a greater chance to be screwed - in fact, the chance is less. Here, you basically said something that I can counter by repeating what you responded to:
"screwed" is generally defined as "turning out below their averages". And every unit has exactly a 50% chance of turning out below the averages, and 50% above. Mentioning RNG screwage just helps Klein and Igrene, as they are more RNG-proof by themselves, allow other units to grow more AND give you money for more guaranteed stat boosters in Ch21.[/b]

[Neofox]

Alan and Dieck and Lance and shizzle use EXP too, but unlike Dorothy they are somewhere between good and godly in nearly every other aspect.

Dorothy averages more speed than most of your team. If you don't believe me, check for yourself. Lance, Alan, Dieck, Miledy, all average less speed than her, and her strength isn't too shabby, either. With stats on par or even better than those units, how is Dorothy not at least "good" statistically? And don't bring up her being locked to bows or anything, we're talking about pure statistics here.

It is pretty much a guarantee that one of your units will get below his averages, or a very high chance. So a lot of the time, one of your units want that stat booster.

You admit with Ayanami that there is a 50% chance a unit will get less than their averages and a 50% chance they will go above their averages, do no, there's no garuntee that units will be RNG-screwed. Until a chance becomes a garuntee, stop saying there's a garuntee that RNG-screwage will occur.

Pretty sure Dorothy is not one rounding Mages. Soldiers could be, maybe, but Dorothy takes a lot longer because she can only kill one on player phase. I can throw Alan in there and kill four soldiers, and I don't have to worry about him dying either.

Dorothy isn't dying in one blow, either (though if you're allowing her to get hit at melee range in those narrow hallways, something is wrong). And besides, more EXP is gained from killing units than weakening, and since some units like to occasionally leave enemies with HP in the single-digits remaining, its not too hard for Dorothy to finish them and level with the rest of the team.

It makes Dorothy easier to train, but it is technically an annoying hindrance that the Snipers don't have to go through at all. Lugh and Lilina can indeed counter at 1-range and you can position them so they can use that when needed, like luring one lonely Iron Lance soldier on enemy phase to hit him, then hit again on player phase for the kill.

But then they need healing, which you claim is a horrible thing to do since Dorothy will have to take blows whenever she counters enemies with ranged attacks.

Like the whole EXP deal, saying "others need it too" is just a way to mask that she needs it moreso than others, especially if she's attacking Mages and Javelin Soldiers (which everyone else takes less damage from and is avoiding better).

No. That early in the game, few aside from Rutger has all that good of dodge, and less aside from Bors are going to have impressive defenses. They need healing just as much as Dorothy (if not more, since Dorothy can attack enemies with iron lances with no fear of counter).

Plus some people like Alan and Lance can do a Javelin throw if they must avoid counters at all costs (and they'll still be outperforming Dorothy), and everyone else can attack Archers without taking a counter.

Yes, javelins and their horrifically low accuracy... and my point with bringing up archers is that Dorothy is fully capable of counterattacking them, since contrary to popular belief, she can indeed capable of counterattacking, even if its just at a range.

Yeah, I can shield her, but I don't want to shield (more) units.

You make it sound like its hard to keep her in the backline.

Two of the wyverns actually charge you once you get to a certain point, I believe you need to get there to recruit the Ilian Cavalry in fact. And even then, there's only 2-3 wyverns and Dorothy clearly is not required to kill them.

She makes killing them easier, which is nice considering they can do heavy damage to even Marcus and Bors if you try to attack them directly, and can one-shot your spellcasters.

I don't think I ever said anything about Sue here yet. I'll say it now: I wouldn't bring Sue to this chapter either. Bringing her up doesn't help Dorothy.

Its an argument most like to use when arguing for Sue, so I figured it was relevant. It wasn't one you brought up specifically.

If Dorothy goes elsewhere, another unit has too, because she cannot do melee combat. My other units can move around freely. Most of the enemies near the houses don't move, it's the Knights and other enemies near them that need more direct handling.

Then have direct combat units go after them and have Dorothy finish them at a range. Problem solved.

Igrene doesn't need training to be useful. You said it: they need less training, so they need less resources (EXP, promo item, shielding), which is good. Shin indeed needs the same treatment (though again for a shorter while) and he is a lot more flexible thanks to his horse, and also has general kickassery to make up for it all. Nonetheless, bringing up Shin does not help Dorothy's case.

It does because he needs training and promotion before he becomes godly. And while Igrene needs less maintenance, she ends up worse than Dorothy as compensation.

Javelins can still up-close Dorothy, so she ties axe users against those when fighting them on their own unless they equip Hand Axe.

Its called "tactics", you place her at the edge of their attack range and they have no choice but to attack her at a range where she can fire back.

Against everything that doesn't always use a Javelin, the others win easily. Lalum? What is this argument? Provide equal treatment to both sides of the comparison or don't provide it at all.

Read my post again. I explained that the others don't need Lalum because either they can counterattack at melee range, or will be busy with other things.

If Dorothy gets attacked by x wyverns on enemy phase, she fails to kill them all, then kills one on player phase.

Wrong. If one attacks her, it will live and block others from attacking her at close-range, which means that unless you do something stupid (like throwing her in the middle of the wyvern army), she will counterattack the ones that fight her at a range and probably kill them.

If Lalum dances for Dorothy, her kill count increases by one. If Lalum dances for Dieck, his kill count increases by a half. However, he will still have done more.

Except Dieck can counter at close-range, so just put him in range of a few wyverns and leave him be.

Anyway, this paragraph is confusing. "Javelin and Lalum somehow make Dorothy's case better. Sure, Lalum can be applied to any other unit at all, BUT since axe users can counter wyverns they suddendly do not need to be danced for at all, and since your Mages are now Sages they can help healing. Dorothy can kill a wyvern on player phase to compensate for Sages healing."

Above should clarify these points.

Never mind that if Dorothy is substituted by a non-Sniper, there would be more damage done on enemy phase and thus it would be more than compensated that Sages are healing, plus healing is needed less because the wyverns die sooner if everyone counterattacks, so the Sages can attack more often.

We're arguing about the snipers, so this point is meaningless.

And yes, they can counter melee, even better than back at Ch6 in fact. It takes a HM wyvern like 3 hits to kill your basic Lugh and he ain't a bad dodger at all, especially with some Ray support or a forest in there.

If Lugh was that hard to kill, wyverns wouldn't be the major threat that everyone treats them as.

Dorothy can use a support or a forest as well, but she gets targetted more often and doesn't do anything back, so it's hardly practical to use her like that.

Again: if attacked at melee once, other enemies are forced to attack her at a range where she WILL counterattack them.

Also, Ray has Nosferatu to stay alive forever.

And lose a good fraction of his speed...

One level does help, you can't just discount it because it's spread over different units.

One level is a negligable difference for each unit at best.

The short time that some people will get to promote earlier alone works in Klein/Igrene favor pretty easily.

One level sooner. A negligable difference, especially since promoting sooner means they earn less EXP.

Hmmm, I've seen that argument before. Then I may as well bring up that I can't substitute one of my frontliners for Dorothy freely without losing efficiency, no?

Klein and Igrene are any different? You're arguing its better to use no units until one of them arrives, so if you can last without having to substitute a frontliner, you can last with Dorothy.

If I can just leave a gap in my frontlines without anyone caring as the enemy will die either way, that's good. Which is indeed what will happen later on, when the healer gains the ability to counterattack (with 1-2 range no less). Dorothy will still have to be shielded.

But until then, they still need shielding, and besides, healers still need shielding late in the game because they have problems with durability. Neither Ellen nor Saul have impressive defenses, not to mention that the former has low speed and the latter has bad luck, meaning they don't want to see combat too often. They can defend themselves, yes, but so can Rhys in FE9 and Lucius in FE7, and people still have to sheild them because they simply can't take blows.

If I need something very simple done, like visiting a village near some enemies, I can send about anyone there on their own except Dorothy, so maybe I'll have to break up a support triangle/chain or send multiple people there with Dorothy. That's annoying.

Who visits villages with units other than mounted ones? They're the best for visiting with the high movement and ability to move again after visiting said village, so why bother with using any other unit type to visit them?

I'm saying that if you sub Dorothy for a prepromote, you can sell the Bolt with no loss, which is good.

And if you use the Bolt, you get the statistically best sniper in the game. The fact bows are the most expensive weapon is meaningless because, again, unless you spend like an idiot, you can afford keeping the army supplied with iron weapons with ease (and if you truly need a stronger one, you get enough freebies of silver and killer weapons to not have to buy more).